The mystery of the lost Jewish golden Menorah (Lampstand)

[tintin_treasure]

Hello TT perhaps they will pay me 100 million and I will tell them where it is not

Regardless of where the historical artifacts have ended up I think they are going to have a long wait.

Crow

Crow kkkk but the groups in Temple Inst have already thier replicas I presume to put in third temple.Ofcourse they would be thrilled to get thier hand on the original.No doubt about it.

tintin treaure

 

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[Crow]

Hello TT I have no doubt they would be over the moon....

But its late and old Crows beak is drooping time for him to hit the nest.....

Crow

 

[doc-d]

Nothing more pathetic than an old crow with a drooping beak…….better head to the nest and catch up on rest our feathered amigo…….

 

[Crow]

Hello Doc old Crow has a mind that runs million miles a hour even in his sleep. I woke up tied..today the old Crow has to put his feet up and bask in tropical sun without too much thinking..

Crow

 

[doc-d]

I envy basking in the tropical sun……soon, very soon, my friend, I shall join you in this……
Here in the rural NE USSA, weather is changing quickly…...

 

[Crow]

Doc old Crow is really chicken when it comes to the cold these days. Any hint of cold weather the feathers fly and I am off the warmer climates.

Crow

 

[Crow]

Hello Ed T while the bible can be a helpful record in tracing historical events and places. It is not infallible either as it been copied and manipulated by various religious doctrines to suit to various agendas from time immoral. While there no doubt all religions and Government institutions have failings in one way or another.

It just seems a little tired and overworked pseudo research that usually ends up with the fingers pointed.... are always the Freemasons, Templar. catholic church. CIA . Jesuits etc... oh I should say Illuminati

The fate of Menorah perhaps will never be known ..... Perhaps its now part of ya wives wedding ring after been melted down centuries ago and exchanged through commerce.

Crow

 

[doc-d]

Si, mi amigo El Crow……I have no use for the cold anymore either….while I enjoy different climates, I see no reason to subject myself to cold anymore……
This will be my 5th year I flee the cold for SA……..each year spending more time down south…….

Any yes, most bibles have been corrupted to some degree…….it seems best to get old translations since they are least corrupted……
And yet our esteemed black bird, while the fingers may point to the usual culprits, there seems ample reason to do so……and yet behind each is a smiling and yet unseen face guiding this evil through the ages and seemingly all is converging now as we seem on the threshold of a fundamental change….
Vaya con Dios

As for our Ed T, as our venerable Señor Don Jose said, it is best to ignore the crazy crap he posts……many attempts at civil discourse has only resulted in his further crazy and absurd ramblings…….

 

[Crow]

Hello Ed-T while I tolerate ones personal beliefs regardless of them I also expect same tolerance in return. This forum is not really a forum for religious or theosophical debate on such matters. Nor do I wish to drag this topic into a debate over it either.

The Menorah is not a vain Object in the Jewish religion, just as the Cross in Christian faith. True Christianity is of tolerance and respect my friend...

I always find it offensive many individuals hide behind the bible for justification for their own bigoted ideology.

I wish you well in whatever you seek.

Crow

 

[Crow]

Continuing our journey in searching for the lost temple treasure and the Menorah perhaps we need to look where the Visgothics eventually made to after somewhat epic journey?

This map of direction over time where they migrated to may be a good indicator?




It is interesting to note where they ended up was near Toledo in Spain before thier empire began to collapse. Interesting still those beautiful Visigoth crowns was buried near Toledo.

Crow

 

[Rebel - KGC]

The King James Holy Bible is the version I believe to be the one I must live by...At least I am compelled to go by this version...And to me it is 100% factual or as close as it gets to the truth...If it was good enough for royalty... It is good enough for me...And as for the Menorah...It is merely a vain image...As is The Holy Temple...Or so this is what I have been taught...hehehe

Maybe someone might explain to me how it came into being...Oro had mentioned something about it once...But he did not expand on his comment...

And as for secret societies...My Father has taught me that all of those families are not part of his family...hahaha...This is why I have not accepted any offers from any of THem to join their merry groups...

And you are entitled to your opinion doc...

Ed Tlol

HA! S.S. don't "recruit"; "ask one to be one"...

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Hello Ed T while the bible can be a helpful record in tracing historical events and places. It is not infallible either as it been copied and manipulated by various religious doctrines to suit to various agendas from time immoral. While there no doubt all religions and Government institutions have failings in one way or another.

It just seems a little tired and overworked pseudo research that usually ends up with the fingers pointed.... are always the Freemasons, Templar. catholic church. CIA . Jesuits etc... oh I should say Illuminati

The fate of Menorah perhaps will never be known ..... Perhaps its now part of ya wives wedding ring after been melted down centuries ago and exchanged through commerce.

Crow

I think it was, too... GOLDEN cup of our Lord? The GRAIL...? HOLY GRAIL!

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Melted down to make GOLDEN CUP with RUBIES in Spain or France; King/Queen SACRED Relic! HOLY GRAIL!

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Is it...?

 

[Crow]

Hello All

The following article may be of interest?

The bible describes the table in Exodus, chapter 25. It was made from gold plated acacia wood. Some solid gold objects were applied, e.g. four golden rings. Two beams from gold plated acacia wood were inserted through these rings to carry the table. Belonging to this table was a set of golden cups and vessels. It was part of the ceremony in the temple in Jerusalem that loafs of bread were placed on the table. That way the Hebrews thanked God for the food.

Like the Menora but in contrast to the Ark of the covenant the showbread table is shown on a reliable and remarkable source: The Titus arch in Rome. When Rome conquered Jerusalem in AD 70 the religious items were removed from the temple and brought to Rome as trophies. Fortunately, table and Menora were depicted on the inner side of the arch. So we know for sure that these items existed and were in Rome shortly after AD 70. The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, who served the Romans, left a detailed account of these events called “The Jewish War”.

According to Flavius Jospehus, the table and the Menora were stored by Titus in the new temple of the peace goddess. He was very proud of these trophies. The stone law tablets Titus brought to his palace.

In the 5. century Rome was plundered twice. In AD 410 by the Visigoths and in AD 455 by the Vandals. In both cases it was said that the successful conqueror took the “Jerusalem gold” or “Hebrew gold” or “Solomon’s gold”.

As far as the table is concerned it appears that it taken by the Visigoths. At first they had the plan to move to Sicily and further to North Africa. But their King Alerich died near Cosenza in southern Italy. According to tradition, the river Busento was redirected and a grave for the king was dug in the riverbed. After the king was buried with lots of treasure the river was allowed to return into its former bed. But these are just myths. However, after Alerich’s death the Visigoths gave up the idea to move to north Africa. They went to south France instead. There most valued possessions they stored in the castle of Carcassonne which is still an impressive sight today. The 6. century historian Prokopius notes that they kept also “the devices of King Solomon which were very impressive” and that “the Romans once removed them from Jerusalem”. I have not checked but it seems he was not more specific. So we do not know what exactly the Visigoths hat at this time.

Upon pressure from the Franks the Visigoths under king Roderich retreated to modern day Spain and stored the treasure in Toledo. Spanish myths mention the table but not the Menora.

In the 7. and 8. century the Muslims started to conquer very large regions in the Near East and north Africa. They crossed the strait of Gibraltar and conquered Toledo in 711. When king Roderich fled to the north the Muslim leader Tarek followed him. Interestingly, an Islam chronicle mentions that Tarek found the “table of Solomon” in a conquered city. This city has been identified as Medinacedi where a small fortress exists. This table is mentioned by several oriental authors. I am not sure, though, that king Roderich would leave treasure of this calibre behind.

It speaks in favour of the Spanish myths and oriental authors that they speak only of the table and not of other Temple treasures like the Menora. These other temple items were brought elsewhere. If Spanish or oriental authors had merely invented their stories why would they restrict their stories to the only temple item that ever came to Spain?

From a researchers point of view it is good that the Muslims started to play a role. After the collapse of the Roman empire they were the most educated people in the Mediterranean. This brings historians and written sources into play at a time where the most powerful ruler in central Europe, Karl the Great, was illiterate.

According to the contemporary historians, Tarek sent the Table to Kalif Hualid in Damascus. The famous “tales of 1001 nights” mention the arrival of the object, too.

In a medieval chronicle of the city Mekka it is said that Hualid sent 36.000 gold dinar coins (=150 Kg) to his subordinate in Mekka. The gold was supposed to embroider the doors of the Kaaba. “It was said it originated from the golden table of Solomon”, said the chronic, “having been sent from Toledo on a strong mule”.

Did the table contain 150 Kg gold?

The bible says the only solid gold item of the three relics, the Menora, contained 50 Kg gold. No amount is mentioned for table and ark which were mainly gold plated wood with some gold items attached. It appears the amount of gold used for table and ark was not worth mentioning to the biblical authors. From that I would conclude that ark and table might have comprised several kg of gold each but not 150 Kg.

The only antique source is Flavius Josephus who speaks of “a table of gold weighing several talents”.( The Jewish War, book 7, chapter 5). A gold talent was some 30 Kg. It seems he does not know that the table consists mainly of gold plated wood. In my interpretation “Several talents” is the total weight of the table and not of its gold applications.

Another hint to the total weight is the relief on the Titus arch. The table is carried by 8 men.

Taking all this into consideration I do not believe that the table comprised 150 Kg gold. Also, I believe Tarek and the Kalif knew that the symbolic value of the table was far greater than the material value of its gold content.

However, even if the table was not transformed into coins I do not see any way to perform a targeted search. The trace ends in Spain.

Crow

 

[tintin_treasure]

Hello All

The following article may be of interest?

The bible describes the table in Exodus, chapter 25. It was made from gold plated acacia wood. Some solid gold objects were applied, e.g. four golden rings. Two beams from gold plated acacia wood were inserted through these rings to carry the table. Belonging to this table was a set of golden cups and vessels. It was part of the ceremony in the temple in Jerusalem that loafs of bread were placed on the table. That way the Hebrews thanked God for the food.

Like the Menora but in contrast to the Ark of the covenant the showbread table is shown on a reliable and remarkable source: The Titus arch in Rome. When Rome conquered Jerusalem in AD 70 the religious items were removed from the temple and brought to Rome as trophies. Fortunately, table and Menora were depicted on the inner side of the arch. So we know for sure that these items existed and were in Rome shortly after AD 70. The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, who served the Romans, left a detailed account of these events called “The Jewish War”.

According to Flavius Jospehus, the table and the Menora were stored by Titus in the new temple of the peace goddess. He was very proud of these trophies. The stone law tablets Titus brought to his palace.

In the 5. century Rome was plundered twice. In AD 410 by the Visigoths and in AD 455 by the Vandals. In both cases it was said that the successful conqueror took the “Jerusalem gold” or “Hebrew gold” or “Solomon’s gold”.

As far as the table is concerned it appears that it taken by the Visigoths. At first they had the plan to move to Sicily and further to North Africa. But their King Alerich died near Cosenza in southern Italy. According to tradition, the river Busento was redirected and a grave for the king was dug in the riverbed. After the king was buried with lots of treasure the river was allowed to return into its former bed. But these are just myths. However, after Alerich’s death the Visigoths gave up the idea to move to north Africa. They went to south France instead. There most valued possessions they stored in the castle of Carcassonne which is still an impressive sight today. The 6. century historian Prokopius notes that they kept also “the devices of King Solomon which were very impressive” and that “the Romans once removed them from Jerusalem”. I have not checked but it seems he was not more specific. So we do not know what exactly the Visigoths hat at this time.

Upon pressure from the Franks the Visigoths under king Roderich retreated to modern day Spain and stored the treasure in Toledo. Spanish myths mention the table but not the Menora.

In the 7. and 8. century the Muslims started to conquer very large regions in the Near East and north Africa. They crossed the strait of Gibraltar and conquered Toledo in 711. When king Roderich fled to the north the Muslim leader Tarek followed him. Interestingly, an Islam chronicle mentions that Tarek found the “table of Solomon” in a conquered city. This city has been identified as Medinacedi where a small fortress exists. This table is mentioned by several oriental authors. I am not sure, though, that king Roderich would leave treasure of this calibre behind.

It speaks in favour of the Spanish myths and oriental authors that they speak only of the table and not of other Temple treasures like the Menora. These other temple items were brought elsewhere. If Spanish or oriental authors had merely invented their stories why would they restrict their stories to the only temple item that ever came to Spain?

From a researchers point of view it is good that the Muslims started to play a role. After the collapse of the Roman empire they were the most educated people in the Mediterranean. This brings historians and written sources into play at a time where the most powerful ruler in central Europe, Karl the Great, was illiterate.

According to the contemporary historians, Tarek sent the Table to Kalif Hualid in Damascus. The famous “tales of 1001 nights” mention the arrival of the object, too.

In a medieval chronicle of the city Mekka it is said that Hualid sent 36.000 gold dinar coins (=150 Kg) to his subordinate in Mekka. The gold was supposed to embroider the doors of the Kaaba. “It was said it originated from the golden table of Solomon”, said the chronic, “having been sent from Toledo on a strong mule”.

Did the table contain 150 Kg gold?

The bible says the only solid gold item of the three relics, the Menora, contained 50 Kg gold. No amount is mentioned for table and ark which were mainly gold plated wood with some gold items attached. It appears the amount of gold used for table and ark was not worth mentioning to the biblical authors. From that I would conclude that ark and table might have comprised several kg of gold each but not 150 Kg.

The only antique source is Flavius Josephus who speaks of “a table of gold weighing several talents”.( The Jewish War, book 7, chapter 5). A gold talent was some 30 Kg. It seems he does not know that the table consists mainly of gold plated wood. In my interpretation “Several talents” is the total weight of the table and not of its gold applications.

Another hint to the total weight is the relief on the Titus arch. The table is carried by 8 men.

Taking all this into consideration I do not believe that the table comprised 150 Kg gold. Also, I believe Tarek and the Kalif knew that the symbolic value of the table was far greater than the material value of its gold content.

However, even if the table was not transformed into coins I do not see any way to perform a targeted search. The trace ends in Spain.

Crow

thank Crow...the article suggests the Visigoths for whatever reason didnt take the Menorah and instead took the showbread table which might have ended in Spain or Arabia... This leaves the fate of the Menorah to the later Vandals...With this latter option there are legends around already.Some believe the ship carrying the Menorah to Carthage in Tunis(base of Vandals at the time) sunk in the Meditrean sea.Other legend says it reached Carthage but later taken by Byzantine conquerors and actually seen paraded in Constantinople..then sent to a Church in Israel for safe keeping etc etc. I am not sure of the source or legend but I think I read as part of the legend a certain Historian was quoted as seeing the triumphal procession in Constantinople and the presence of the Menorah there,,,,hence things began to be very blurred.One has to ask why the Visigoths left the Menorah and took the Table instead? It does not make sense unless someone managed to hide it before Rome was taken by Alaric.Then after resurfacing again it later got robbed by Vandals? Or was it hidden ever since it was taken just before the arrival of the Visigoths and the Vandals also didnt take it? Maybe thrown in the Tiber as Alaric entered Rome ? Many questions indeed...

tintin treasure

 

[Crow]

Many questions and so little answers that is why it is such a mystery.

The problem is we can only assume either Visigoth took it or the Vandals or it was thrown into the Tiber or was hidden in Roman?

Do you realse there are many early christian tombs hidden under the streets of Rome?







In 1918 they even found Jewish tombs undeer the city dated from 3rd century to the 5th century. Most of them have not been fully explored. There is also possibility that one was used for hiding the Menorah?

Crow

 

[tintin_treasure]

Many questions and so little answers that is why it is such a mystery.

The problem is we can only assume either Visigoth took it or the Vandals or it was thrown into the Tiber or was hidden in Roman?

Do you realse there are many early christian tombs hidden under the streets of Rome?

View attachment 1064528

View attachment 1064529

View attachment 1064530

In 1918 they even found Jewish tombs undeer the city dated from 3rd century to the 5th century. Most of them have not been fully explored. There is also possibility that one was used for hiding the Menorah?

Crow

Hello Crow...True. There is a vast unexplored world underneath Rome..and also underneath bed of the Tiber.

tintin treasure

 

[tintin_treasure]

Not directly related but of general interest....In the city I am residing this year (for some study..) I discovered that a river that once roared across the city has changed its course to almost 70 to 80 meters away from its original .I actually checked this on the site because there is an old bridge standing now surrounded by streets and villages ,,,But the old river with the same name passes across a street some 70 or so meters away,albeit dwindled in its level from its glory days.I read before that rivers could change courses,but didnt expect such a big change .This has implications in the way we look for treasures associated with rivers,whether it is the treasure tombs of Alaric, Atila the Hun, Ghenghis Khan which all are associated with rivers,or whether the Nibelung treasure associated with Rhine.We should take account of the potential change of the course of the rivers.And as I have seen firsthand that could be more than 70-80 meters away..

tintin treasure

 

[Crow]

Hello tt that is a factor ya always have to consider.....

Crow