The Lost Carson Mine

[ikesdad]

I agree regarding the Baker yarn.

 

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[sdcfia]

The Baker Brothers Seam is a dead issue as far as I'm concerned, but there may still be something to find up at the head waters of Twilight Creek. Won't be able to figure that out until someone gets up there and does an extensive search.

I am still of the opinion the Carson vein was not all the way at the top, or gold float would not have been found where Twilight meets Lime. As well in Temple's account there is mention of dynamite and a drill being found in a side canyon on a rock shelf. There is only one side canyon up there where such float would not be trapped in a basin, which starts at 37.636452, -107.744267. Elements of Temple's story do not agree with this conclusion, but how would float be able to wash down the watershed if the vein was above basin pools?

Could have happened a long, long time ago, I guess. I've heard a number of prospectors puzzling about float and how things get to where they're found. Normal rainfall runoff patterns are fairly predictable vis-a-vis sediment transfer, but huge floods can do strange things - like move lots of muck (really big stuff too) great distances, uncover older, deeper muck, form basins, etc. Following a float trail sounds easier than it is. Who knows? It's a crap shoot.

If we question the Cornelius account (and we should as a matter of routine), then we also need to question the other accounts of rich float being found in Twilight Creek. How can those reports be verified? Let's face it, all treasure legends are likely to be disinformative to some degree, just based on human nature. The only thing that ups your odds on the Carson tale is the relatively fewer number of seekers of the vein over the years, compared to the signature legends such as the Lost Dutchman, Lost Adams, et al. It's all about degrees of separation from the true events - each additional degree corrupts the facts.

 

[ikesdad]

Could have happened a long, long time ago, I guess. I've heard a number of prospectors puzzling about float and how things get to where they're found. Normal rainfall runoff patterns are fairly predictable vis-a-vis sediment transfer, but huge floods can do strange things - like move lots of muck (really big stuff too) great distances, uncover older, deeper muck, form basins, etc. Following a float trail sounds easier than it is. Who knows? It's a crap shoot.

If we question the Cornelius account (and we should as a matter of routine), then we also need to question the other accounts of rich float being found in Twilight Creek. How can those reports be verified? Let's face it, all treasure legends are likely to be disinformative to some degree, just based on human nature. The only thing that ups your odds on the Carson tale is the relatively fewer number of seekers of the vein over the years, compared to the signature legends such as the Lost Dutchman, Lost Adams, et al. It's all about degrees of separation from the true events - each additional degree corrupts the facts.

Well said.

 

[UncleMatt]

I agree the remoteness may make it possible for something to still be found up high. However, I found a lot of evidence of prospecting activity at Lime/Twilight, so something must have been found there or none of that stuff would be there. Unless that cabin was built for sheep herders, prospecting would be the only other reason for it to be there. Unless someone was using it for a vacation getaway long in the past.

I learned recently that Lime Creek road was once part of the main road between Durango and Silverton, which was supported by lots of guard rails made of rock along the scariest parts descending down northward from the southern hairpin. Its possible the area was more often frequented back in those days.

 

[Barton]

Lastleg--refering to post #165 your advise to go SOLO-- DON"T DO IT!

I have different advise--when up in the San Juan Mountains I feel you should--when possible, have at least one partner. If you break a leg--or the bones in your foot--
or a pack animal rolls over you and breaks your ribs--( all three I have seen happen ) I feel it is safer to have someone with you to get help or help you get out of the mountains.

Those mountains can get very rugged and--if you climbing out on a steep slope, or cliff taking a sample of quartz ore--and as you swing your rock hammer you
go into a slide or lose your balance--with out help--only GOD will know what happens to you!

Also in Colorado I suggest you get rescue insurance ( I do )--or the state will sue you for all cost associated with looking for you.

 

[Barton]

Hello Pealer,

I see you get around--your photo brings back some old memories. I was up there with my daughter years ago. The memories of the time I spent with her
I will always treasure. To me the easiest way up there--is the trail by the rest stop.

 

[Elliott_C]

I'd like to revive this thread since I have a desire to tromp around the West Needles before the snow falls, and a few things stand out about this story that seem to be contradictory. Perhaps someone can give some insight on what I find contradictory and clear this up for me.

I'll feel like a fool if this has already been discussed in detail. I did read the whole thread but after 16 pages I kinda forgot what was in the beginning pages.

As UncleMatt wrote, Carson confided in his family that his strike was on the north face of the West Needle Mountains, and the story that I've read has the vein on Twilight Peak. Next, Carson's camp was discovered at the head of Twilight Creek. According to the map that I have, Twilight Creek heads on the south side of South Twilight Peak (not to be confused with Twilight Peak and North Twilight Peak, both to the north). An important note is that to the southeast of the head of Twilight Creek is a peak named West Needle Mountain.

So, if Carson did indeed camp at the head of Twilight Creek, then in order for him to get to the northern slopes of one of the three Twilight Peaks, he would have to walk up and over a 13,000 foot mountain to the north, then pack the ore back over the mountain down to his camp since the vein was inaccessible to a pack animal, then go back over the mountains to the north side, then bring more ore back to the south side, and on and on.

If he was mining on West Needle Mountain, then all he would have to do is walk south up the northwestern slop of WNM, then right back down to his camp. This makes much more sense, but it doesn't quite line up with the story.

Concerning Juan Quintana:

Quintana is said to also have camped at the head of Twilight Creek. Again as UncleMatt wrote, Quintana's direction for the vein he found indicated a generally southern direction from the sheepherder's camp at the head of Twilight Creek. Also, the story that I have has Quintana looking at Twilight Peak to the south from his camp.

The problem is that it is not possible to see or access any of the three Twilight Peaks if one is facing or going south on Twilight Creek. It is possible to see and access the specific peak called West Needle Mountain to the southeast.

I think there is an error in this story, and the error could either be Twilight Creek or Twilight Peak. If Carson's and Quintana's camp was actually at the head of Crater Creek but through the years it got mistaken for Twilight Creek, then that would make more sense as the north faces of the three Twilight mountains would be visible and accessible from there, and that means that the vein is on the north side of the mountains just as Carson said it was.

However, if Twilight Creek is correct, then the only other possibility is that the vein is not on the northern slopes of the mountains, but rather it is in the bowl between South Twilight Peak and West Needle Mountain and on a northerly-facing slope of West Needle Mountain as the bowl comes around to the west.

I hope I have made a little bit of sense in this mini novel, but really I don't have a clue, and all I can really do is go have a peek at these peaks before the snow piles up. Thanks for reading.

 

[lastleg]

If we don't hear from you by Christmas Reb and I will come alooking.

 

[Marmentman]

Great thread uncle Matt. I have a love for those mountains and love sitting on top just enjoying the scenery. I have on two occasions sat on top of Engineer mt and looked that way hoping some day I will get to explore that remote area. Maybe as the kids get older we will search the area. Until then I will continue to venture into those mountains alone. As far as rescue insurance, forget it, just burry my body under a large pile of unmarked stones, what a beautiful place to die if my time ever comes when I am out there!

 

[Rebel - KGC]

If we don't hear from you by Christmas Reb and I will come alooking.

HA! Hanging out with BIG FOOT family of Peaks of Otter, Bedford County, Va... FOR REAL! Then wife & I are going to Meadows of Dan, on the BRP. Come, join us... like BLUE GRASS...? BOY HOWDY!

 

[Rebel - KGC]

If we don't hear from you by Christmas Reb and I will come alooking.

Heh; putting on Cloak of Invisibility...

 

[Elliott_C]

However, if Twilight Creek is correct, then the only other possibility is that the vein is not on the northern slopes of the mountains, but rather it is in the bowl between South Twilight Peak and West Needle Mountain

I think that bowl might also be where the lost Estes mine is.

I wonder if Carson and Estes were working in the same immediate area. Estes supposedly had sylvanite ore, and Carson had brown-sugary quartz, so I don't know if it's possible that they could be taking gold out of the same area, but I guess it's at least worth speculating about.

 

[Elliott_C]

If we don't hear from you by Christmas Reb and I will come alooking.

I'm giving myself one week to poke around the West Needles. At the end of that week, I have to move on to the next place on my list. I'm allotting one week for each place, and I currently have four places I want to snoop around, with the last place being down in the Sangre de Cristos. I'm short on time before winter sets in, otherwise I'd stay on the mountain indefinitely until I found something.

 

[Loke]

Keeping my fingers crossed for you!

 

[UncleMatt]

As UncleMatt wrote, Carson confided in his family that his strike was on the north face of the West Needle Mountains, and the story that I've read has the vein on Twilight Peak. Next, Carson's camp was discovered at the head of Twilight Creek. According to the map that I have, Twilight Creek heads on the south side of South Twilight Peak (not to be confused with Twilight Peak and North Twilight Peak, both to the north). An important note is that to the southeast of the head of Twilight Creek is a peak named West Needle Mountain.

So, if Carson did indeed camp at the head of Twilight Creek, then in order for him to get to the northern slopes of one of the three Twilight Peaks, he would have to walk up and over a 13,000 foot mountain to the north, then pack the ore back over the mountain down to his camp since the vein was inaccessible to a pack animal, then go back over the mountains to the north side, then bring more ore back to the south side, and on and on.

The story says the strike was on the northern slope of the West Needle Mountains, NOT the north slope of Twilight Peak. I believe you are confusing one for the other. My read on this is that the strike is on the south side of Twilight Creek, on the north (and perhaps the north-west) side of West Needle Mountain.

 

[Elliott_C]

Well, I hiked up there and snooped around. Didn't find a vein of gold or a lost mine, but I thoroughly enjoyed my trip. I took a few pics so you guys can see what both Carson and Estes would've seen as they were striking it rich with gold that still exists somewhere in these very pics.

Here's the northern slope of West Needle Mountain. You can see the uppermost pond and headwaters of Twilight Creek at the left of the pic, which is to the north. Directly to the left or north of that pond is South Twilight Peak. I think the lost Carson vein is right there on that slope in this photo. However, it'll take a better man than me to find it.

 

[Elliott_C]

I climbed partway up the north face of West Needle Mountain and snapped this pic of the Twilight Creek headwaters below. This might've been Carson's view of where his camp supposedly was. Legend says that he just blocked off an area around the headwaters and turned his mule loose without worrying about it wandering off. I could see how that would be possible.

 

[Elliott_C]

Here's a more close-up shot from the downstream side of that pond that is in the other two pics. To the right or south is West Needle Mountain, and to the left or north is South Twilight Peak. All that gold is right here, fellas, I just wish somebody would find it. I think Estes' lost mine is somewhere in the vicinity, too, although not in this particular little bowl.

Edit: Well, I got the photo to show up, but it appears upside down. However, when I click on it, it enlarges as rightside up. I don't have a clue why this isn't cooperating like the other two.

 

[lastleg]

Elliott, can you speak about the Sangres without saying what you're looking for. May have
useful info to share.

 

[Simon1]

Elliott C: I was unable to view your attachment 1233280 ? Possible to try it again ? Thanks