the great deception of swift

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concerning funky water in indian mines they have drains on both ends atleast the ones i found . here in ohio there is a top of mtn with a mine all the way the top dirt piled to outside of hill about every 30 or 40 feet they left openings for water draning this is fort hill as it is called it is supposed to be an indian fort this supposed to be by arceoligist compare this to geoligists in ky and what they say no metals in ky

 

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[franklin]

There is a mountain cave where silver has been found between Tazewell, Virginia and the Breaks. A man told me one time of the cave at a gun store. I do not know his name but it was an interesting story. He said there were all kinds of Indian Artifacts in the cave even canoes. The cave is about one mile from one entrance to the other, maybe a mile and one half. It starts somewhere on the Virginia - West Virginia stateline at Bishop, Virginia and goes to Pocahontas, West Virginia.

 

[swiftfan]

There is a mountain cave where silver has been found between Tazewell, Virginia and the Breaks. A man told me one time of the cave at a gun store. I do not know his name but it was an interesting story. He said there were all kinds of Indian Artifacts in the cave even canoes. The cave is about one mile from one entrance to the other, maybe a mile and one half. It starts somewhere on the Virginia - West Virginia stateline at Bishop, Virginia and goes to Pocahontas, West Virginia.

I’ve heard of the cave too. I guy I used to work with swears it’s true and that he’s been there. But, it’s not in the same place. This one is big enough to ride four wheelers through..

 

[franklin]

I’ve heard of the cave too. I guy I used to work with swears it’s true and that he’s been there. But, it’s not in the same place. This one is big enough to ride four wheelers through..

The one I was talking about is too. It is big enough to ride canoes through during the rainy season. I don't know where the entrances are though?

When I believed in dowsing. I went up to the top of Pound Gap and was using my dowsing. It lead me up above where the highway breaks through at the very top. It looks like an entrance a very large entrance was filled in with rocks. It was not done by the highway dept. because it was higher. You can climb up to it easily. It is on the right as you are heading towards Kentucky. I always wanted to try an open that entrance as the mountain is believed to be hollow. But if rocks roll onto the highway you may just get in to trouble.

 

[KY Hiker]

concerning funky water in indian mines they have drains on both ends atleast the ones i found . here in ohio there is a top of mtn with a mine all the way the top dirt piled to outside of hill about every 30 or 40 feet they left openings for water draning this is fort hill as it is called it is supposed to be an indian fort this supposed to be by arceoligist compare this to geoligists in ky and what they say no metals in ky

So the trench is cut like the underside of an arch, that makes sense, gotta be drier that way!

 

[KY Hiker]

Wow a cave with Indian artifacts that hasn't been looted in this day and age would be amazing.

 

[Ken S.]

So I wonder, how much can a mule or horse carry 200 miles? 20 x 2000lbs = 400,000lbs (20tons) and if a mule can carry 300lbs (guessing) you would need 1333 mules to move that.....
lets wrap our collective heads around that number...
...even if a mule could carry 500lbs (doubtful) that requires 800 mules to move...and that is not everyone's share is it? Even if they made 8 trips over the 10 years it would take 100 mules to move just their shares! Like fish stories, I think the amounts and numbers inflate over time with this legend!
How do you feed 100 mules over 3 months or more in the wilderness? How do you contain them? protect them? and water them daily? Not to mention hide them from Indians.... It would be an ordeal just to do these things with 8 - 10 men not considering the mining, charcoal making, smelting, coining and hunting for food chores!
The task with that many animals becomes monumental at the very least IMHO.

Also consider this, charcoal needed to be made from trees. After 'working' a mine(s) in an area over ten years there would be a huge loss of trees and a large number of stumps left...very hard to hide that from anyone. And 25 years later when trying to find the mines again, many of those stumps would still be there and a sapling forest around the same location.

Hear is you a base line Hiker !! figure 75- 100 mules 225 -250 pounds per animal. Mules would be the animal of choice because of them being more sure footed than horses.

 

[Ken S.]

If the Indian mine was on a ridge line it would be easy drained if the trench was dug across the ridge instead of along with the ridge line.

 

[franklin]

Hear is you a base line Hiker !! figure 75- 100 mules 225 -250 pounds per animal. Mules would be the animal of choice because of them being more sure footed than horses.

I do not believe you would have a train that long with that many animals and men in the wild country especially with Indians. The Indians loved to take your animals and supplies. No I do not believe any of that could have happened. Swift did not even take along an extra mule. Remember when the lading of one of the mules had been shot through by the Indians? Instead of placing it on another mule they had to bury it until another trip. Maybe 8 to 10 pack mules, the men and their horses. Still a large train for the wild. The counterfeit coins being found in Kentucky I believe are the Spiller Dollars and not the Swift at all. There was a lot of counterfeiting in that area and around Tazewell, Va.

Does anyone have any of the Spiller Dollars to compare with the Swift Dollars.

 

[swiftfan]

Now that everyone is thinking about the logistics of this, how would Flint and Fletcher have so many pieces of silver? I, like some of the others here think the numbers are inflated to make a better story. But, looted goods carried from one place and melted down and converted into coin is possible. I don’t think there’s a grand storehouse somewhere waiting. If there was,it’s all gone. I do think there was something to the “Scotch company “ as they supposed to have paid more than was due. Probably for silence.
I do think there was something left behind, as Swift died a poor man in search of his treasure.
There was a good point made when the charcoal to be kept would have consumed a lot of the trees in the area. And to operate for around a decade would definitely draw attention. So, how do we look at this now? Were they mining and smelting? Or melting down looted stuff and converting? This is really got me looking at different aspects of the story now I hadn’t considered...

 

[swiftfan]

Also, if silver is a byproduct of lead in this story, then the lead is molded into short and distributed to the storehouses for the fledgling idea of an armed revolution. The silver is split for payment to the party. What about that?

 

[KY Hiker]

Now that everyone is thinking about the logistics of this, how would Flint and Fletcher have so many pieces of silver? I, like some of the others here think the numbers are inflated to make a better story. But, looted goods carried from one place and melted down and converted into coin is possible. I don’t think there’s a grand storehouse somewhere waiting. If there was,it’s all gone. I do think there was something to the “Scotch company “ as they supposed to have paid more than was due. Probably for silence.
I do think there was something left behind, as Swift died a poor man in search of his treasure.
There was a good point made when the charcoal to be kept would have consumed a lot of the trees in the area. And to operate for around a decade would definitely draw attention. So, how do we look at this now? Were they mining and smelting? Or melting down looted stuff and converting? This is really got me looking at different aspects of the story now I hadn’t considered...

I am after the truth more than the treasure, and since I am in the engineering field I tend to analyze things microscopically. I wish there was a way of comparing all the 30+ some versions of the journal so that all the common details could be refined out...there is where the truth lies behind this legend. Find those things that are common among the journals and pursue those details... as for the wood consumption, whether they melted or smelted they had to use heat and I bet they weren't mining coal to do the job! They more than likely had to use the Indian traces to travel to and from, otherwise they would be bushwhacking and leaving a 'path' to be discovered. Find those Indian traces, then find the landmarks/carvings and you will eventually find where they were working...somewhere nearby those traces is a salt keg size hole (about 18" in diameter) on the third ledge of a ridge...probably across from a set of carved steps on the end of a finger of a ridge leading down into a valley you need to cross to get to that 3rd ledge...

 

[KY Hiker]

Also, if silver is a byproduct of lead in this story, then the lead is molded into short and distributed to the storehouses for the fledgling idea of an armed revolution. The silver is split for payment to the party. What about that?

At this point any of that is possible, maybe researching colonial army/militia lead sources may lead to something? I am pretty sure most men had a mold and made their own balls, just don't know where they got their lead from.

https://allthingsliberty.com/2018/0...-roberdeaus-quest-lead-pennsylvania-frontier/

 

[KY Hiker]

So I wonder, how much can a mule or horse carry 200 miles? 20 x 2000lbs = 400,000lbs (20tons) and if a mule can carry 300lbs (guessing) you would need 1333 mules to move that.....
lets wrap our collective heads around that number...
...even if a mule could carry 500lbs (doubtful) that requires 800 mules to move...and that is not everyone's share is it? Even if they made 8 trips over the 10 years it would take 100 mules to move just their shares! Like fish stories, I think the amounts and numbers inflate over time with this legend!
How do you feed 100 mules over 3 months or more in the wilderness? How do you contain them? protect them? and water them daily? Not to mention hide them from Indians.... It would be an ordeal just to do these things with 8 - 10 men not considering the mining, charcoal making, smelting, coining and hunting for food chores!
The task with that many animals becomes monumental at the very least IMHO.

Also consider this, charcoal needed to be made from trees. After 'working' a mine(s) in an area over ten years there would be a huge loss of trees and a large number of stumps left...very hard to hide that from anyone. And 25 years later when trying to find the mines again, many of those stumps would still be there and a sapling forest around the same location.

Well I just looked this up to answer my own question, a pack mule can carry 20% of its weight maximum but for extended periods of time (distance?) 10% is a good rule of thumb. If a mule weighs 800-1200lbs your looking at a load of 80-120lbs...200lbs would be generous...this means more mules needed OR they didn't haul out as much coin...a lot less coin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule

 

[Ken S.]

Also, if silver is a byproduct of lead in this story, then the lead is molded into short and distributed to the storehouses for the fledgling idea of an armed revolution. The silver is split for payment to the party. What about that?

In My area there is a legend of wagon loads of lead being buried about the time of the revolution. The legend goes wagon loads so who's to say how many or if there was more than one load. Never have heard of it being recovered.

 

[Ken S.]

Well I just looked this up to answer my own question, a pack mule can carry 20% of its weight maximum but for extended periods of time (distance?) 10% is a good rule of thumb. If a mule weighs 800-1200lbs your looking at a load of 80-120lbs...200lbs would be generous...this means more mules needed OR they didn't haul out as much coin...a lot less coin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule

the base line I gave was considering the weight of the mules I used to log with they weighed about 1600 ea,

 

[franklin]

I believe all they did if they did anything was to take some silver bullion from plunders on the high seas and make some counterfeit coins. This gave them an excuse to spend all of the other legitimate coins they plundered on the high seas. I found the miner Jeffries old home place and I had a signal from what looked like a root cellar. The signal actually was so loud with a two box that it made me knock the headphones off my head. Problem is, it is in a no dig area near traffic.

 

[KY Hiker]

But there is no evidence that John Swift was anything but a merchant who owned ships...not a sea captain, not a privateer or pirate. As a matter of fact, if he was a pirate he was an outlaw...how would an outlaw get around on land in the colonies to and from the mines (and/or furnace) with a column of mules and horses loaded with loot? With plenty of remote places near shore for a pirate to set up a furnace in those days, I just don't buy into that at all.

 

[Brushy Bandit]

Hauling enough silver to be profitable inland all the way to Kentucky seems unlikely to me but if I was a pirate, no one would know me or what I looked like. Deadman tell no tells.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Also, if silver is a byproduct of lead in this story, then the lead is molded into short and distributed to the storehouses for the fledgling idea of an armed revolution. The silver is split for payment to the party. What about that?

Could BE!