the great deception of swift

[rgb1]

greetings to everyone i know this is a new can of worms however it needs to be explored john swift in most of what he wrote in his journal was completly deceptive , but only in his discriptions of locations of his mines and his travels to and from his mines after intering ky. most discriptions is of his lower and his west mines in his travels thru ky. he marked different areas i beleve for deception purposes as we know after 1764 there is no mention of lower or his west mines and no descriptions of travels to or discriptions of his upper mines in his journal . why ? i believe at this time hr abondoned these mines at this time because of much easier acess and richer values in his upper mines. if the upper mines were of richer values and eaiser access why return to the other mines . i also believe the great shawnee cave was also a deception if it was sacred i doubt he would have access to store his large amount of metals he said he stored there yes he probably did know about it but what better way to decieve others . mabey im wrong ? give me your thoughts this is just the way i see things .

 

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[KY Hiker]

With all the versions of journals and the passage of 250yrs time, I think it is difficult to know what was deception by him and what might be a deception by someone 'rewriting' the journal and passing it on. There has to be a reason for so many different versions of the journal. Are they all wrong? Are they all right? Did he author them all? Or did he never exist and that is why there are so many versions? We are now so removed from the facts because of time and legend everything has to start with a hunch in my opinion.

 

[Ken S.]

rgb1 I do believe you may have hit the nail on the head with your thinking. I have always had my doubts about the legends ever how many they be . I've always heard if anything that sounds to good to be true, usually isn't. There has been a number of mines found around the Grayson Lake Area. But the was found by an Indian Waybill .In the past 250 yrs. there has been many mines opened and closed by black smiths and people getting iron ore for one reason, not to mention mines that have been opened by individuals for coal to heat their home and to sell or trade a wagon/sled load for things or services they needed. Many of which was covered back to keep livestock and kids from going in them before the electronic age they know now. It would be next to impossible to take the deceptive directions of any of the maps and find the particular spot of the mines even if he had mines. I figure what mining he done was in old Indian mines if he mined at all.

 

[swiftfan]

I always liked the idea that he was carrying in looted riches from the profits on the high seas and converting it into coin of the day. The mine area is smack dab in the middle of two starting locations for his trips. The party just didn’t travel the roads in the east. Then there’s the idea that the profits were coined to fund an idea that later became the American Revolution... but that’s only my ideas of what COULD have happened...

 

[KY Hiker]

rgb1 I do believe you may have hit the nail on the head with your thinking. I have always had my doubts about the legends ever how many they be . I've always heard if anything that sounds to good to be true, usually isn't. There has been a number of mines found around the Grayson Lake Area. But the was found by an Indian Waybill .In the past 250 yrs. there has been many mines opened and closed by black smiths and people getting iron ore for one reason, not to mention mines that have been opened by individuals for coal to heat their home and to sell or trade a wagon/sled load for things or services they needed. Many of which was covered back to keep livestock and kids from going in them before the electronic age they know now. It would be next to impossible to take the deceptive directions of any of the maps and find the particular spot of the mines even if he had mines. I figure what mining he done was in old Indian mines if he mined at all.

Many of the journals say that. Mundy lead Swift to a mine he worked when he was 'with' the Indians.

 

[KY Hiker]

I always liked the idea that he was carrying in looted riches from the profits on the high seas and converting it into coin of the day. The mine area is smack dab in the middle of two starting locations for his trips. The party just didn’t travel the roads in the east. Then there’s the idea that the profits were coined to fund an idea that later became the American Revolution... but that’s only my ideas of what COULD have happened...

If the dates are wrong, he could have been involved with revolutionary war related smuggling/minting of coin! Lead was needed for musket ball for the army and militia, silver is often a byproduct of lead mining. ...But I don't subscribe to hauling loot this far inland to re-coin it and haul it back out. More risk in that when there are many other better options.

 

[rgb1]

good to see you back swiftfan

 

[rgb1]

considering mundy and the indian mineis because of the area i found the three mines ins the reason for posting swift was deceptive is because of the area i found three mines in at the front of is a very extensive indian mine this area does not fit discriptions given by swiftas to directions to his mines however do fit his decribed travels . as for the great cave because of all the problems and attacks at the mines i just cannot see him going to a sacred cave to deposit his metals or anything elseit seems he had no indian problems at the lower or west minesonly at the upper mines these had to be deeper in shawnee territory the mines i found are within 5 miles of one of forks of the levisa fork. these are west of that fork.

 

[KY Hiker]

Well 5 miles is a 'considerable distance' West! So you found 3 mines in the same area as an extensive Indian mine...making that 4 mines total? And if I understand you correctly, that area does not fit what is described in the journal but it is along the route described in the journal? Interesting rgb1, please any other details you could share? Are there any landmarks at all or carvings that you know of that would lead you to believe it is Swift for sure? Could it be a set of Indian mines instead? Similar to the Little Caney Creek mines?

 

[rgb1]

there is swif t carvings within a mile or two yes i do have more info that i believe does prove these are swifts mines at present time cannot give this outit is not his carvings that leads me to belive these are hisits other things i have discovered the indian mine is a trench mine the other three are horizontal shaft mines doubt these to be indian.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Such as...?

 

[swiftfan]

I also think that there was never a Shawnee cave. I cave maybe, as I said earlier a place to convert the coinage. To refer to a “Shawnee “ cave would have meant the Indians knew and used it. That’s not practical if you’re hiding something.

 

[franklin]

I also think that there was never a Shawnee cave. I cave maybe, as I said earlier a place to convert the coinage. To refer to a “Shawnee “ cave would have meant the Indians knew and used it. That’s not practical if you’re hiding something.

When you say convert coinage? Do you mean they carried coins into the wilds of Kentucky melted them and then carried them back to their homes in North Carolina. Does not make sense to me? Anyone else?

 

[franklin]

If the dates are wrong, he could have been involved with revolutionary war related smuggling/minting of coin! Lead was needed for musket ball for the army and militia, silver is often a byproduct of lead mining. ...But I don't subscribe to hauling loot this far inland to re-coin it and haul it back out. More risk in that when there are many other better options.

What about the two associates in North Carolina, Flint and Fletcher that had over 600,000 pieces of eight. That would weigh almost 20 tons. Surely they would not carry more than that into Kentucky and then carry it back to North Carolina.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

MAYBE the Great Shawnee Cave (once used by them), BECAME the cave of newly minted coins for the various colonies by Swift & Associates; various colonists had to go to the GSC to get THEIR coins... like from NC. DUNNO...

 

[Rebel - KGC]

What about the two associates in North Carolina, Flint and Fletcher that had over 600,000 pieces of eight. That would weigh almost 20 tons. Surely they would not carry more than that into Kentucky and then carry it back to North Carolina.

Were they PIRATES...?

 

[KY Hiker]

there is swif t carvings within a mile or two yes i do have more info that i believe does prove these are swifts mines at present time cannot give this outit is not his carvings that leads me to belive these are hisits other things i have discovered the indian mine is a trench mine the other three are horizontal shaft mines doubt these to be indian.

I agree with that for sure, I have read before that Indians would dig trench-like mines on flat areas. Makes sense when you think about their lack of iron tools! I never understood how they kept water out of them though, over time I would think they would fill with funky water.

 

[KY Hiker]

I also think that there was never a Shawnee cave. I cave maybe, as I said earlier a place to convert the coinage. To refer to a “Shawnee “ cave would have meant the Indians knew and used it. That’s not practical if you’re hiding something.

I had always heard that it was a burial cave, funny thing is Mammoth Cave had an Indian buried in it near its main entrance. (Mammoth goes through the ridges and has multiple entrances and has still not been completely explored)...its not in Eastern KY though...Could be as KY was being settled, that the two stories were combined? Remember that in these times people sat around and told stories or read books if they could afford them. No TV, radio, phones, newspapers or mail delivery in the early days.

 

[KY Hiker]

What about the two associates in North Carolina, Flint and Fletcher that had over 600,000 pieces of eight. That would weigh almost 20 tons. Surely they would not carry more than that into Kentucky and then carry it back to North Carolina.

So I wonder, how much can a mule or horse carry 200 miles? 20 x 2000lbs = 400,000lbs (20tons) and if a mule can carry 300lbs (guessing) you would need 1333 mules to move that.....
lets wrap our collective heads around that number...
...even if a mule could carry 500lbs (doubtful) that requires 800 mules to move...and that is not everyone's share is it? Even if they made 8 trips over the 10 years it would take 100 mules to move just their shares! Like fish stories, I think the amounts and numbers inflate over time with this legend!
How do you feed 100 mules over 3 months or more in the wilderness? How do you contain them? protect them? and water them daily? Not to mention hide them from Indians.... It would be an ordeal just to do these things with 8 - 10 men not considering the mining, charcoal making, smelting, coining and hunting for food chores!
The task with that many animals becomes monumental at the very least IMHO.

Also consider this, charcoal needed to be made from trees. After 'working' a mine(s) in an area over ten years there would be a huge loss of trees and a large number of stumps left...very hard to hide that from anyone. And 25 years later when trying to find the mines again, many of those stumps would still be there and a sapling forest around the same location.

 

[Ken S.]

Wow !!! logical thinking !!