the day of the hunt/police encounter

bomber

Bronze Member
Jan 6, 2006
2,340
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DUI
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
ok here we go,bear with me,its a long one(thats what she said,sorry i'm a goof)full of i said,he said.if i'm off here or there please feel free to correct me.normaly the ccfp(forest preserve)opens b4 8:oo am,the gates didn't open till about 8:30,which was odd(but now makes sense)we finalyy got in and did a quick "meet & greet" and got the guys out by 9:00am or so,at the time i did a count of 22 people(i could be off by 1 or 2).me'n murph stuck around to wait for last minuters(lowbatts & mayo and a few others)which was fine cause i didn't plan on too much digging anyway.about 9:15 or 9:30am the forest police(fp) shows and says they got a call about the hunt warning them about us(thats why the gates weren't open till later i'm guessing).he says we're not allowed to hunt "Chippawa"(bad spelling i'm sure)from what i understood its an indain burial ground just north of where the camp is.he said someone had called the ccfp HR dept(who knew they had one)and then it got bumped to the the conservation society.i tell him we're at the boyscout camp not the indian burial ground and that at least 3 clubs have digs there,all this time i'm telling him i'm not trying to be an a$$hole about this but we're allowed to hunt the ccfps(side note,the cop was ok,hes just doing his job under orders from his boss)now he says its under discussion about changing the rules for cook county about mding.thats fine if its under discussion BUT until that actually happens and it becomes fact and is posted for all to see,it just dosen't matter,since its still"in discussions"and again tell him i need to see some kind of papewrwork before i pull the guys in.at this point i'm still telling him politely i'm not trying to be an ass,and hes telling me the same,hes just doing what hes been told(i even invited him to come join us for lunch).he asks me to bring the guys in again or hes going to go into the woods and get them himself,i tell him all the guys have headphones on and that there not going to hear a phone ::)so now he start walking towards Devon Ave(you have to cross the street to get to the camp)he got as far as the street and then came back(i'm guessing he didn't want to get his shiny shoes and creased pants dirty by going in the woods)he gets in his squad car and says to keep trying to call them in.before he leave i ask him to just give us till lunch(another 1 1/2 hrs)and all the guys will be back...nope.maybe 20 minutes later he cruises back and asks again if i got a hold of anybody,again even tho i tried really really really hard.nope ::)ok now keep in mind that i've told him my BIL(Brother in law is a sargent there at the woods)but its his day off and i thow the name at him,he says that normally thats his supervisor,but this time i've already called my wife to call him an ask whats what,well he can't help cause its been pushed up the ladder so far cause of that single phone call and that they've already called him at home.the cop also now tell me that not only are we not allowed to dig but we can't have large groups going out together,i ask him whats considered a "large group"he has no answer,just shrugs and again says hes just doing his job.well again ya gotta give me more that that,first its no hunting and now no large groups,which is it no groups or hunting,at this point i even think they're just reaching for anything but have nothing to back it up,i asked him to have his supervisor come back for lunch with us and show me some kind of documentation.he drives away and i only see him drive by one last time without stopping,i figure they couldn't back any of this up so they had to leave it alone.as far as bullhorn,i never saw a single one,that not saying he didn't pull up around Dee rd or Higgens and use one,i myself never saw one at all.last count i did we had 26 people,you need a permit for over 25,so i'm am guilty of that,i just never thought it that the hunt would turn out so big :thumbsup:,next time i will get all the proper permits...ok now i'll get preachy,first i'm taking responsibilty,don't be blaming treasurefiend,it was me and me alone,my names on the original post so if anybody has a problem come to me and i'm directing this at anybody whos lurking or watching or some tnetter with a bad attitude,personlly i don't care,all of our hunts are on the up & up,nothing illegal.when we started this non-club a few years ago,this i just what i wanted,a group of like minded guys who enjoy the same hobby,no clubs dues,no meetings,just digging.if the CCFP really want to improve the woods for everybody, diggers(who provide a huge service by cleaning up the area of trash and what not)and families,how about doing something about the the freaks in the woods( i mean the guys with babyseats in the back of the family van,crusing the woods for a "quickie")i don't have kids and even if i did there no way i'd let them venture off to see any crap like that.sick --deleted--s,certainly more of a threat of we will ever be...your right Lowbatts,i can't get off the grid like you said so i removed that post.the whole point of what we're trying to do is to bring us together and dig,trade info and just have fun if we start going underground the idea is just lost,how many guys have joined up in the last year cause of our posts showing who and what we are?well take a good look and the pics and vids of our hunts and you'll see.like Murph said we'll never stop hosting these hunts.again for all those watching and lurking,grow a pair and deal with me directly if ya have a problem.and again thanks all you guys who have joined our little(big?) non club.this is what i wanted when this started and i glad its finally come to be.sorry to be long winded but it needed to be said also since we're not sure who the rat is theres no point in pointing fingers but don't forget we on the radar now...also i'm open sunday for some digging,whos in and where?...lowbatts,suggestions?..Nicky P,your always welcome shag your a$$ down here for the spring hunt...APRIL!,theres always extra on the grill
 

Nice post. And I want to re-state what I mentioned about being secret- I don't want anyone to stop what they've been doing. I want everyone to post finds because that's what we all come here to see. Finds accompanied by stories. Photos, I love all of that. I don't want to hide away. I just think that, due to the overflow of jealousy in the hobby, a few people get all tangled up and want nothing more than to bust us for anything. And keep in mind we're doing nothing wrong. I just think that some minor details be left out. We still need to plan out future hunts publicly so that no one misses them. Use your own discretion regarding this issue, but mainly, remember, like Rich said, we are on the radar.

Joe
 

Wow sorry to hear you gotta mole dude. Sounds like a really fun time for a non club hunt. ;D :D :wink:
Next time tell the enviro police that your not a club so he'll have to deal with each individual seperately. Ya'll just agreed on *another* web site( :wink:) to meet up and hunt that spot. He'll drop dead trying to tell each individual they have to stop hunting. :D :D :D
 

All I know is that I had a good time and it was nice to see everyone that I had met before and to meet new folks. Its hard when you travel like I do to meet folks like us who have a great hobby and who enjoy sharing information like we do. Keep up the good work and I am sure GOIO, Mcetrac and I will be around for the next get together. TMAN...
 

*****rant warning ahead*****************
Remind any police officer you encounter that if they obey orders 'from above' which violate your civil rights (like False Arrest) or do anything that violates a known state law, they lose their "Qualified Immunity". That is the protection we have as police officers from being sued for simply doing our job. I've been threatened with lawsuits so many times I lost count, and a few were even filed. But NONE have gone through to even the earliest stage because I know the law and enforced it properly. You need to know your business or you should NOT be a cop!! I don't usually give advice to people about my profession, but metal detecting is something I see rabid a$$h0le$ in LE and govt trying to suppress, and have even experienced it first hand! I am also a HUGE supporter of the rights of individuals NOT to be hassled for something that doesn't break the law or cause problems for others! So this is my advice.
Especially if you have a video camera, tape the encounter and make sure you remind the officer(s) why what you are doing is legal. What we do has to be proper, and can't just be shrugged off with an excuse "it's orders from above". The enforcing officer is responsible for his actions unless he can establish "good faith", which usually means he didn't realize what he was doing was 'improper'. THAT'S why you explain ON TAPE that very thing to him! A cop can't use the excuse "my superior(s) told me to" in court if they know the action is wrong in the first place, and all cops know that!!! Video recording is a great weapon for individuals in their contacts with authority.
That being said, make SURE what you're doing is LEGAL! The smallest thing (like too many in the hunt without a permit) can get you screwed!! But a video tape could establish that wasn't the problem or the charge when contacted by the officer and it would not cover them for the original detention/arrest/citation if they tried to add it later because the original one was improper!!
I'm sick of persons in authority abusing their power for their own personal reasons!!! When we accept the job of a "government official", we also accept responsibility to comport ourselves in a prescribed manner. There are too many in power today who don't feel that way, and they need to be REMOVED from those positions!
*****end of rant************************

I just HAD to include this quote from Lowbatts on another thread. It still cracks me up!

"Teddy Roosevelt is puking down the side of Rushmore at the state of wildlife "management" these days."
 

CC I don't think allot of the enviro cops really know the law as it pertains to them and their behavior. Most of what they are grilled on is environemental laws and a little about PC and proceedure but that's prolly the extent of it. Very few that I have seen even have academy credentials. :-\
 

id sure hate to see the ccfp sites close for good. some people are such small thinkers. they just want to keep all the goodies intact for themselves. just in case they might get over their lazyness enuf to get out there and find it for themselves someday. dellwood park in lockport is a good example of this. is or used to be tected by relatives of the parkdist. the possibility that someone on 'our side of the fence' called these guys in leaves me speechless.
 

The.Boomer said:
CC I don't think allot of the enviro cops really know the law as it pertains to them and their behavior. Most of what they are grilled on is environemental laws and a little about PC and proceedure but that's prolly the extent of it. Very few that I have seen even have academy credentials. :-\

I've been approached by city and county officers where parks or other public places were in their jurisdiction too. But pretty much all law enforcement officers these days have to have the police academy to be 'certified', and the academy in each state (after generic police training) teaches about that state's laws . I don't specifically know how intensive it is for all Conservation Agents/Police, Park Rangers/Police, DNR Police, per se, but they generally require previous police experience or a college degree PLUS they send their officers through a few hundred hour training academy of their own for conservation, park service, DNR training/issues in addition to the regular state or fed police academy.
So they are usually 'police officers' and have extensive training.
When bomber said "forest police", talking about Cook County, I figured if he didn't mean a Cook Co Sheriff's Deputy, he meant IL Conservation Police. They have pretty comprehensive training and prerequisites for hiring.

I spent my last 13 years with the University of MO Police, and had people constantly think we weren't cops, even tho all our stuff clearly says "police" on it. A lot of surprised people ended up in cuffs, setting in the back of my patrol car saying "you can't do this!" They usually got enlightened about the time I booked them into the county lock-up. We had more training, better equipment and more enforcement authority than many regular LE agencies.

Always expect, if they seem to have 'enforcement authority', they are real cops. And especially if they are hassling you about MD'ing, saying you have to stop...................... and if they aren't, they'll have to call someone who is if you tell them to do something anatomically impossible and keep on swinging! ;D

Video cameras are always good tho, even if you're dealing with civilians. :wink:
 

Thanks for the thread, Bomber! One thing that concerns me, and I'm sure everyone else is whether MD'ing in the FP is really under review. If this was BS - no problem, but if it isn't, the time to take action to preserve the status quo is now - before an ordinance is passed. I can't tell you how many old cans and pieces of broken glass I haul out of the woods, and I'm sure the other hunters will say the same thing. I think most MD'ers leave the areas they hunt in much better condition than they find them in. This is something that needs to be looked into.

With regards to this:

Cybercop106 said:
Especially if you have a video camera, tape the encounter and make sure you remind the officer(s) why what you are doing is legal.

In Illinois, it's against the law to record a conversation without the consent of all parties involved. It's a felony. Just FYI for all.
 

Yep I wasn't questioning whether they are real Police CC. I'm just stating that while you are from a regular police dept. which stresses the requisite knowledge about Civil rights and the legalities involved since it is something you guys are dealing with on a continual basis. While many of the Enviro Police have only the little amount of Academy training on the subject they get and it isn't stressed on a continual basis in their offices like it is in yours. As to how many of them are coming from certified academies, I doubt either of us really knows that answer. In this day and age of the Patrolling rent a cop, surely you too are aware of how many private security police can be confused with law enforcement. Not to mention, the cost cutting measures in some communities has led to some departments opting for the supervisors being academy trained while foot and even sometimes patrol may actually only have college degrees. Well any way I don't wanna get off subject and into a argument about the police in question. If any officer is throwing weight around without PC to back himself up with the good job to the average Joe citizen for standing up to him. But as you and I both know there is always the catch alls "disturbing the peace" or how about "Interfering with a police officer". Honestly I think Bomber handled this just right, but I still would've enjoyed hearing the escapades of this officer trying to tell each person they have to stop MDing. ;D
 

THe CCFP police are real police, they deal with all kinds of calls and they will get your respect if you break bad on them. Jake and I were hunting a site and a CCFP canine unit was there, he was really cool and interested in the whats and hows of what we were doing, from a standpoint of curiosity, not authoritative oversight. Act like a threat and sell yourself hard, you get the hard luck treatment.

On the other hand, an Illinois Conservation police officer told me and Mikelb we could not hunt in the state park where we were hunting and I already knew we could. So I informed that officer of the rules regarding State Parks, which she was vague on. I asked if she had any hard fast rules in her binder and she was unaware of any regarding MD'ing. Some are off limits, some require permits. All are at the discretion of the site super as to enforcement. Downstate I was at a state park with my uncle and the site super there was very friendly, verbal okays worked for him and the conservation police who stopped by were more curious as to results than mired in regulations.

Don't worry, be happy! Someday our governments at all levels will start removing dumb laws and writing less laws and taxing us less and hiring fewer friends, cronies, relatives and in-laws. Heck, I bet some layers of government will even realize they are not providing the value they promote and do cost/benefit analysis and realize they just aren't needed anymore, no matter how loudly we stand up and shout "NO, WE NEED YOU TO DIRECT US AND CONTROL OUR HABITS AND DESIRES!!! PLEASE DON'T GO! WE'LL GIVE YOU MORE MONEY!!"

It's touching to see how they love Big Brother
 

not sure if they are"real police". like could he pull ya over for speeding outside the woods?not sure.i'll be seeing the brother in law soon so i can get more details about what happened from their side
 

Okay Bomber, next time we see your BIL we'll send a sacrifice his way. Someone can call him a "fake" cop. Uh, not me though.

Real police just means they have full enforcement authority over their domain. I wouldn't expect an Elgin cop to pull me over in Schaumburg and I wouldn't let a Schaumburg cop pull me over period, but that don't mean they're not real police!

Ask him about the policegambling ruling in theState Supreme court though. The court ruled that police have no legal obligation to enforce any law on the books. In a case where a local bar had on-going gambling and the local police were "aware" of it, state police apparently investigated and even charged local police. I think the case was from Elburn, maybe Sycamore.

Most states have rulings already that the police have no legal obligation to "protect" any individual from harm so it's at their discretion that they intervene when called.
 

No problem Boomer, I just didn't want you to let any cops hassle you because you expect too little of them..... ;D

As for this:
kimsdad said:
With regards to this:
Cybercop106 said:
Especially if you have a video camera, tape the encounter and make sure you remind the officer(s) why what you are doing is legal.

In Illinois, it's against the law to record a conversation without the consent of all parties involved. It's a felony. Just FYI for all.

IL is a "two party consent state", so actually it's illegal to "record a conversation" covertly, by means of an "eavesdropping device".
Video cameras are not considered as such.
Video taping, filming and taking photographs are not illegal as long as it's not posted as specifically prohibited (or subject to limitation - like a courtroom) AND you are in a location it's legal for you to be in, according to IL law (720 IL Compiled Stat. Ann., Sec 5) and can be done without a person's consent UNLESS it involves a restroom, tanning bed, tanning salon, locker room, changing room or hotel bedroom.

So like I said, use 'em if ya got 'em!
 

Lowbatts said:
Okay Bomber, next time we see your BIL we'll send a sacrifice his way. Someone can call him a "fake" cop. Uh, not me though.

Real police just means they have full enforcement authority over their domain. I wouldn't expect an Elgin cop to pull me over in Schaumburg and I wouldn't let a Schaumburg cop pull me over period, but that don't mean they're not real police!

Ask him about the policegambling ruling in theState Supreme court though. The court ruled that police have no legal obligation to enforce any law on the books. In a case where a local bar had on-going gambling and the local police were "aware" of it, state police apparently investigated and even charged local police. I think the case was from Elburn, maybe SycamoreMaple Park.

Most states have rulings already that the police have no legal obligation to "protect" any individual from harm so it's at their discretion that they intervene when called.
DING DING you sir are correct
"I did'nt know " :o
 

I walked right by an officer in a CCFP car. Full Carhart bibs, detector over shoulder and a backpack last week. I walked by and said "good day" and he just noded back and said "likewise". I went across the street and no one bothered me. It was clear from the amount of trash, used rubbers, booze bottles, and guys picking up other guys in the parking lot....these CCFP officers have FAR more pressing issues to worry about that MDer's.

Peace

Zod
 

I was just reminded by kimsdad that people have been arrested for videotaping police. He's right, and not just in IL. I should have mentioned the possibility, even though it would be illegal and unconstitutional, they could still arrest and try to charge you.
So although you could successfully sue them and win like a number of people have, I thought it would be a good idea to provide the specific info supporting your right in IL to videotape police in a situation like we were discussing, just in case anyone decides to take my advice....

If you read the Exemptions section of 720 ILCS 5 you will see one that is very IMORTANT:
"(i) Recording of a conversation made by or at the request of a person, not a law enforcement officer or agent of a law enforcement officer, who is a party to the conversation, under reasonable suspicion that another party to the conversation is committing, is about to commit, or has committed a criminal offense against the person or a member of his or her immediate household, and there is reason to believe that evidence of the criminal offense may be obtained by the recording;"
This doesn't exempt police officers.

Anyway, having been in law enforcement in MO for a couple decades, I don't know about IL court cases 'personally', but I was also basing my statement on some things from our legal training:

Other than the previous entry in IL state law, the precedent setting court decision Cassidy v. ABC, 377 N.E. 2d 126 (Ill. App. Ct. 1978) exempts video cameras from being considered an "eavesdropping device" there and further, the court considered the public interest in the police officer's conduct to be paramount in relation to the privacy interest of an individual. The status of the policeman as a public official "is tantamount to an implied consent to informing the general public by all legitimate means regarding his activities in discharge of his public duties." This was upheld by the successful federal lawsuit against Champaign County IL for the 2004 incident (http://www.ucimc.org/node/3303) against Martel Miller and Pat Thompson.
H.M., et. al. v. Town of Cicero, Federal N District of IL (2004) concerns a guy who was videotaping police during an arrest and was himself physically accosted and arrested. Charges were dropped and the man received an out of court settlement from the agency. Represented by Dvorak, Toppel & Barrido, LLC, the settlement agreement prohibits disclosure of terms.
Another precedent in IL is the case where you can't be banned from videotaping in "public". Read about it here.
( http://www.rcfp.org/newsitems/index.php?i=6685 ).

There are other precedents in federal courts established, such as this describes:
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/05/541.asp

Here's a good article on the issue involving cell phone 'camcorders'. Notice NONE of the law enforcement officials responded by saying they would arrest someone recording their officers because Illinois AND federal legal precedents pretty much insure a Title 18 Section 1983 lawsuit being successful against the officer/agency.
( http://articles.directorym.net/The_whole_world_is_watching-a878993.html )

Being involved with the law like I have been, I sometimes forget people don't have access to all the information we have....... and heck, even some cops don't know this stuff; that's why I am a huge advocate of holding them responsible for knowing the laws they enforce. I can't promise someone won't get threatened with it or actually arrested, albeit illegal and unconstitutional. I should have been more explicit about my statements. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
 

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