The Apache of the Southwest of the States and northern Mexico...

[Real of Tayopa]

Ipuk The 'lazy' Apache loved their families as much as anyone. Of course they did, but that doesn't excuse their work division.

B) And why did they kill the Apache ?? almost 200 yeass of raiding, killing, and torturing by the Apache and the Mexicans said "enough". The resul was of the Apache' own doing.

C) Who - n -ell told you the Apache ever whipped the Yaqui.?? I lived with them for over 5 years and was partially responsible for them regaining part of their land and an irrigation system from gradual gov't enroachment, they had the same attitude - still do towards their women, very lazy until recently. Incidentally the Yaqui had developed a very effective poison for their hardwood tipped cane arrows that frightened the Apache with good reason, since any arrow wound was fatal... that is nother story for the Apache / Yaqui war.relationship.

 

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[Real of Tayopa]

HOW? / a delicate balancing act and no money. Tayopa belongs to the patrimony of Mexico, hence no Mining, or treasure trove law protects it, sides no money available However I don't really believe that I want to open it up, I am devided in leaving it alone. I an now 93, and don't really need more money. My family will get their inheritance when I release the book


.

 

[azdave35]

You really are conflating things in your mind regarding what I did and didn't write.

But that aside, Ifyou want to talk about "facts", let us start with some politics, I am no expert in any sense of the word when it comes to what Great Britain did when the US was one of its colonies. Sure the British were driven out, and rightly so; imperialism is wrong in all its forms. But please do not labour under the assumption that the US government has always had its own way in the world. History tends to disagree with this jingoistic nonsense...

As for present-day Apaches, why oh why would it come into the equation as to what they do or do not have...?

I was under the impression that I started this thread to discuss the historical aspect of the Apache and how it shaped and defined the Southwest and northern Mexico. I have no axe to grind.

You seem to get very defensive very quickly and take offence where none was intended.

And if you ever take the time to travel, and I do not mean within Arizona, perhaps you will see that as well as doing many good things across the globe, your government who you seem very fond of, is viewed with suspicion by many across the globe due to its inability to understand the viewpoint of others. Honestly. I travel and have travelled a fair bit across the world.

Hope you don't vote someone like Trump into the White House...

....you say everyone hates americans...if so why are people coming here in droves from practically every country on the planet...if you hate us so bad...stay home...trump...lol...alot of people hope trump doesn't get in the white house...most of them are gangsters and crooks and politicians

 

[Real of Tayopa]

The alternative is Hillary, which is far worse. She and bill have beenlinvolved with larcenary, fraud, bullying, and even murder.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

back to the Apache white washing

If the Apache had stuck to simple robbing they prob would be still in the Sierras After all there are plenty of simple of bandididos in there, I had a couple of runins with them..

 

[Injunbro]

I spent today taking some friends to Cochise camp & the location of the peace treaty made w/ General Howard. While I was gone you folks seem to have gotten yourselves all excited! I'm enjoying it!
Don Jose: I'll admit to being Mohawk, Apache, (lazy thieves though you call us), Dutch, Swiss (sometimes even admit a bit of English) whose descended from outlaws & renegades & married to a blonde Danish, Swedish, Pennsylvania Dutch lady.... but I ain't never been accused of being Irish! I do find it amusing the guy from "the land of manana" accuses anyone from anywhere else for being "lazy" though!
AZDave: Visit Bylas, AZ sometime if you want to see reservation life @ it's worst. No casino, no work, no free vehicles, no tourist trade & not much way to get from there to the few jobs available in Safford. But they grow what they can in small gardens, hunt, find what work they can & are some of the most cheerful & good-natured people you'd ever meet because they're w/ their families.
IPUK: I'd rather Genghis Khan got into the White House as HiLIARy Clinton. I'm not Trump fan but he's got 10 billion times as much integrity & has my vote! Thanks for defending the Apaches though, come see them sometime & you'll see some of the most friendly, happy folks on Earth... until they get in a basketball game where elbows, kidney punches, bloody noses & wedgies are considered part of the fun & no one counts fouls!... then they all meet for ice cream & laughs afterwards (by the way that was girls basketball, the boys get rough). :? Now think of the football & boxing matches w/ a bunch of 250+lb. gorillas.
All: Yes, Apaches killed their enemies in terrible ways & also had a poison mixture to dip their arrows in (I know the recipe but won't tell it to most) & tortured their enemies just like every other group of people anywhere but I'd like to point out Apaches didn't rape, love children, were/are very family oriented & very few who lived w/ them ever had any desire to live w/ their own people afterwards (Merijildo Grijalva being an exception). Geronimo was in a state where the Apaches were @ peace w/ the Mexicans when his 1st wife & children were murdered, it's argued the Mexicans who attacked, molested & murdered his family were from another state but very doubtful. At any rate no decent people attack, rape & murder women & children... anyone who claims what they did to Geronimo's family could possibly be justified is very sick.

 

[azdave35]

"But they grow what they can in small gardens, hunt, find what work they can & are some of the most cheerful & good-natured people you'd ever meet because they're w/ their families."

sounds like paradise to me

 

[azdave35]

I spent today taking some friends to Cochise camp & the location of the peace treaty made w/ General Howard. While I was gone you folks seem to have gotten yourselves all excited! I'm enjoying it!
Don Jose: I'll admit to being Mohawk, Apache, (lazy thieves though you call us), Dutch, Swiss (sometimes even admit a bit of English) whose descended from outlaws & renegades & married to a blonde Danish, Swedish, Pennsylvania Dutch lady.... but I ain't never been accused of being Irish! I do find it amusing the guy from "the land of manana" accuses anyone from anywhere else for being "lazy" though!
AZDave: Visit Bylas, AZ sometime if you want to see reservation life @ it's worst. No casino, no work, no free vehicles, no tourist trade & not much way to get from there to the few jobs available in Safford. But they grow what they can in small gardens, hunt, find what work they can & are some of the most cheerful & good-natured people you'd ever meet because they're w/ their families.
IPUK: I'd rather Genghis Khan got into the White House as HiLIARy Clinton. I'm not Trump fan but he's got 10 billion times as much integrity & has my vote! Thanks for defending the Apaches though, come see them sometime & you'll see some of the most friendly, happy folks on Earth... until they get in a basketball game where elbows, kidney punches, bloody noses & wedgies are considered part of the fun & no one counts fouls!... then they all meet for ice cream & laughs afterwards (by the way that was girls basketball, the boys get rough). :? Now think of the football & boxing matches w/ a bunch of 250+lb. gorillas.
All: Yes, Apaches killed their enemies in terrible ways & also had a poison mixture to dip their arrows in (I know the recipe but won't tell it to most) & tortured their enemies just like every other group of people anywhere but I'd like to point out Apaches didn't rape, love children, were/are very family oriented & very few who lived w/ them ever had any desire to live w/ their own people afterwards (Merijildo Grijalva being an exception). Geronimo was in a state where the Apaches were @ peace w/ the Mexicans when his 1st wife & children were murdered, it's argued the Mexicans who attacked, molested & murdered his family were from another state but very doubtful. At any rate no decent people attack, rape & murder women & children... anyone who claims what they did to Geronimo's family could possibly be justified is very sick.

i'm with you on hillary....anyone that would vote for her is as crooked as she is.....i say give trump a chance..the lad definitely knows how to run a business

 

[Injunbro]

"But they grow what they can in small gardens, hunt, find what work they can & are some of the most cheerful & good-natured people you'd ever meet because they're w/ their families."

sounds like paradise to me

Visit it sometime... running water, heat, cooling, electricity or buildings that keep out the wind & rain aren't a normal thing there...

 

[Real of Tayopa]

My injun bro, you realize of course that I was speaking of tte bronco Apache of the middle 1800', ?

As for the arrow poison, unlike my Injun bro, I will freely give the Yaqui version.

Incidentally Iwas working at Kits peak observatory. The road passed through the reservation and the trading post. You never drove through there except at a very reduced speed when the monthly ration and money was passed out. The highway was covered with sleeping Indians - passed out drunk, With the poor gals were looking for their man in order to rifle his pockets for money for food, above the issued rations.

Once I was carrying a group of Yaqui elders into the Bacatetes, going to fort Tetecombiate , we entered through the guard station at Jori., and soon after it commenced to drizzle, That section is pure adobe, and those that know Adobe, know that it is at it's worse when wet.The only way to have any traction is wih chains, lugs are worse than useless since they quickly build up forming a smooth tire effectively.

Wel we managed to slip and slide around until we came to a curving raroyo,there we met \our Watterloo.

I told the Yaqui to gather firewood and erect tha canvas trap that i always carry for shelter and set off on foot for a ranchito back about 5 miles, I was soaking wet and had grown about 3 inches from the adobe stuck under my shoes, \unfotunately no one was there, a note said that they had gone to Obregon for a few days. So I decided th borrow their tractor,only to find that they had removed part of the fuel injector system to be sure that it was there when they returned, So it was back to the truck to warm up.

When I had returned to the " camp " it was to fined that nothing had been done. They were milling around, thorouhly miserable, wet and uncomfortable. I asked them why they hadn't setup camp. They sheepishly replied that was womans work and they didn't know how. So much for the fiercely independent Yaqui of today. Incidentally, we didn't die, but spent a few days drinking coffee under the tarp after I had strung it up

As for linege I am OIRISH, French and a itty bity part Mohican. As I told our injun bro, it was a long .cold, winter, sides she was very cute.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Ipuk The 'lazy' Apache loved their families as much as anyone. Of course they did, but that doesn't excuse their work division.

B) And why did they kill the Apache ?? almost 200 yeass of raiding, killing, and torturing by the Apache and the Mexicans said "enough". The resul was of the Apache' own doing.


C) Who - n -ell told you the Apache ever whipped the Yaqui.?? I lived with them for over 5 years and was partially responsible for them regaining part of their land and an irrigation system from gradual gov't enroachment, they had the same attitude - still do towards their women, very lazy until recently. Incidentally the Yaqui had developed a very effective poison for their hardwood tipped cane arrows that frightened the Apache with good reason, since any arrow wound was fatal... that is nother story for the Apache / Yaqui war.relationship.

Don,

It is nice that you think that your adopted country - Mexico - was responsible for removing the Apache. The Apache was wasting the other natives and Spanish loooooong before anyone was even a glint in their father's eye and who then decided to call themselves a "Mexican".

The story you tell of living with the Yaqui has been mentioned by you on a 'few' occasions and how you were partially responsible for getting this, that and the other for them etc...

IPUK

 

[Interested Party in UK]

HOW? / a delicate balancing act and no money. Tayopa belongs to the patrimony of Mexico, hence no Mining, or treasure trove law protects it, sides no money available However I don't really believe that I want to open it up, I am devided in leaving it alone. I an now 93, and don't really need more money. My family will get their inheritance when I release the book


View attachment 1372964View attachment 1372965.

Don,

That old "I'm 93, no money" so on and so forth spiel, has been the mantra for many, many years.

I clearly gave you a choice of getting a team together and doing some damage to whatever cave/pit/cache/hoard you claim exists. You declined.

If you honestly believe your book will create an inheritance of any sort or description for your family, more power to you. I think most would agree that uncovering what you claim is there, would enhance and validate what you say and believe a whole lot more...

Just a personal observation, please do not be offended by it, but if you had spent the last couple of decades working on trying to open up whatever it is you have up there instead of trying to convince one and all you'd found the Tayopa, perhaps then you would be well and truly enjoying the fruits of your endeavours...

Like I said, that is only my observation.


IPUK

 

[Interested Party in UK]

You really are conflating things in your mind regarding what I did and didn't write.

But that aside, Ifyou want to talk about "facts", let us start with some politics, I am no expert in any sense of the word when it comes to what Great Britain did when the US was one of its colonies. Sure the British were driven out, and rightly so; imperialism is wrong in all its forms. But please do not labour under the assumption that the US government has always had its own way in the world. History tends to disagree with this jingoistic nonsense...

As for present-day Apaches, why oh why would it come into the equation as to what they do or do not have...?

I was under the impression that I started this thread to discuss the historical aspect of the Apache and how it shaped and defined the Southwest and northern Mexico. I have no axe to grind.

You seem to get very defensive very quickly and take offence where none was intended.

And if you ever take the time to travel, and I do not mean within Arizona, perhaps you will see that as well as doing many good things across the globe, your government who you seem very fond of, is viewed with suspicion by many across the globe due to its inability to understand the viewpoint of others. Honestly. I travel and have travelled a fair bit across the world.

Hope you don't vote someone like Trump into the White House...

....you say everyone hates americans...if so why are people coming here in droves from practically every country on the planet...if you hate us so bad...stay home...trump...lol...alot of people hope trump doesn't get in the white house...most of them are gangsters and crooks and politicians

Wrong again...

Please, please and please again, read what I have said as oppose to what you think I've said....


IPUK

 

[Interested Party in UK]

back to the Apache white washing

If the Apache had stuck to simple robbing they prob would be still in the Sierras After all there are plenty of simple of bandididos in there, I had a couple of runins with them..

Don, I would still ask you to provide an answer to the question I have asked you on several occasions but you have skirted or completely ignored:

When the Chiricahuas made their end of hostilities agreement, why was peace and prosperity declared in Arizona..?

Sure, they continued to raid into Mexico, because they had not made any such agreement with the Mekikans..



IPUK

 

[Interested Party in UK]

I spent today taking some friends to Cochise camp & the location of the peace treaty made w/ General Howard. While I was gone you folks seem to have gotten yourselves all excited! I'm enjoying it!
Don Jose: I'll admit to being Mohawk, Apache, (lazy thieves though you call us), Dutch, Swiss (sometimes even admit a bit of English) whose descended from outlaws & renegades & married to a blonde Danish, Swedish, Pennsylvania Dutch lady.... but I ain't never been accused of being Irish! I do find it amusing the guy from "the land of manana" accuses anyone from anywhere else for being "lazy" though!
AZDave: Visit Bylas, AZ sometime if you want to see reservation life @ it's worst. No casino, no work, no free vehicles, no tourist trade & not much way to get from there to the few jobs available in Safford. But they grow what they can in small gardens, hunt, find what work they can & are some of the most cheerful & good-natured people you'd ever meet because they're w/ their families.
IPUK: I'd rather Genghis Khan got into the White House as HiLIARy Clinton. I'm not Trump fan but he's got 10 billion times as much integrity & has my vote! Thanks for defending the Apaches though, come see them sometime & you'll see some of the most friendly, happy folks on Earth... until they get in a basketball game where elbows, kidney punches, bloody noses & wedgies are considered part of the fun & no one counts fouls!... then they all meet for ice cream & laughs afterwards (by the way that was girls basketball, the boys get rough). :? Now think of the football & boxing matches w/ a bunch of 250+lb. gorillas.
All: Yes, Apaches killed their enemies in terrible ways & also had a poison mixture to dip their arrows in (I know the recipe but won't tell it to most) & tortured their enemies just like every other group of people anywhere but I'd like to point out Apaches didn't rape, love children, were/are very family oriented & very few who lived w/ them ever had any desire to live w/ their own people afterwards (Merijildo Grijalva being an exception). Geronimo was in a state where the Apaches were @ peace w/ the Mexicans when his 1st wife & children were murdered, it's argued the Mexicans who attacked, molested & murdered his family were from another state but very doubtful. At any rate no decent people attack, rape & murder women & children... anyone who claims what they did to Geronimo's family could possibly be justified is very sick.

Hi Injunbro,

Been holding the 'fort' in your absence....glad your back!

Haven't been out of the gates in case those lurking, lazy, brutal, evil savages pumped me full of poison-tipped arrows..

But seriously, just mentioned Trump because I was being facetious.

As for meeting Apache, you bet I shall be making a trip to Arizona and indeed the rest of the Southwest and border area on both sides. I guess I've got a get-out card: I don't play basketball!

I totally agree with your point on how the Apache really were.

Some on here seem to have 'tainted' views based on populist nonsense and I don't believe have done that much research to consult the proper records, documents and facts. Guess it might be a tad difficult for them. Fair enough, each to their own. That is why I created this thread; let us discuss those times, people and events. Nothing against anyone, just a true and accurate portrayal and everyone gets the opportunity to ask, tell and take on-board...

IPUK

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Dave, I am 93 now, There is a problem in my wife driving, she doesn't feel up to it. Thanks in any event, say Saludos to joe, and the oro's.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

IPUK, I will send you an private message on the condition that it is never made public on Tayopa ok ??

 

[Interested Party in UK]

IPUK, I will send you an private message on the condition that it is never made public on Tayopa ok ??

Don,

My interest in Tayopa was kindled when I read about the campaigns in the Madres against the Chiricahua. There was different references to it. Also, whilst as PoWs, various Apache were asked if they knew the whereabouts of the fabled mines and if they could shed any light on the legend, the replies were usually non-committal and guarded.

As you well know, I have been devoting more and more of my time, focus and resources on this treasure-'researching' (that is the wily Crow's definition) lark, my aim was to get together a professional team and do the business as far as your site was concerned.

Now, to be honest and upfront with, as I hope I always am with all, Tayopa is of no interest to me and I am working on other projects.

But I thank you for showing me regard in that you know I would never betray anyone's confidence - ever.


IPUK

 

[Real of Tayopa]

So far we haven't whitewashed the bronco Apache, and the reason that the Yaqui usually won in their fights was that they believed that 'the land was given to them by God, and they had to protect it no matter what the cost, and they did..

The majority of thr Apache in the the US were pacific, and the reputation of te Bronco Apache peeled off on them. The Apache had no land or boundaries in Mexico, yet the broncos raided and tortured, indiscriminately. If the Apache had stayed in their land, there never would have been a problem. One can only take so much. then it s atrocities on both sides, but the 'origi'n of the problem was with the young Apache, they were bored, so it was off to the Sierra Madre for fame and loot, very similar to our own military.

An army is far too cumberson to move quickly, this was the secret of the Apache system of not warefare, but evasion.

Injunbro the general reservation is a trap. They get enough to live on but not an incentive to advance themselves A similar problem exists with the majority of a certain segment of our colored Population.

Incidentally IPUK the Taliban represents the Apache in Britland. How is the Military handling this?

 

[Interested Party in UK]

So far we haven't whitewashed the bronco Apache, and the reason that the Yaqui usually won in their fights was that they believed that 'the land was given to them by God, and they had to protect it no matter what the cost, and they did..

The majority of thr Apache in the the US were pacific, and the reputation of te Bronco Apache peeled off on them. The Apache had no land or boundaries in Mexico, yet the broncos raided and tortured, indiscriminately. If the Apache had stayed in their land, there never would have been a problem. One can only take so much. then it s atrocities on both sides, but the 'origi'n of the problem was with the young Apache, they were bored, so it was off to the Sierra Madre for fame and loot, very similar to our own military.

An army is far too cumberson to move quickly, this was the secret of the Apache system of not warefare, but evasion.

Injunbro the general reservation is a trap. They get enough to live on but not an incentive to advance themselves A similar problem exists with the majority of a certain segment of our colored Population.

Incidentally IPUK the Taliban represents the Apache in Britland. How is the Military handling this?

If nothing else, we have certainly stimulated debate and discussion with this thread, and that was my hope and intention!

I do not know enough about the Yaqui to start discussing their history, culture and outcomes. I believe most people/tribes/communities at one time or another believed that their god had created and given them their 'special' land - it was and is a way of trying to justify and make sense of their very being and purpose I would say. But the Yaqui have and never will be as famous (or infamous depending on one's viewpoint) as the Apache because the Southwest and the Mexican northern states and border, will always be synonymous with the Apache!!

Don, the 'broncos' as you put it, were single warriors or small bands still "out" during the 1880s onwards, the Apache were creating havoc and whipping the Spanish, native tribes, then Mexicans and finally Americans from the mid-16th century onwards! They were spoken of by conquistadores on contemporary expeditions and they were feared/loathed/respected/hated even then...!

I would gladly give quotes from the tomes I have read and collected but when you've got literally hundreds of books in a collection, it is not always easy to remember what you read where. Plus I am working, planning my projects abroad and trying to make time for my family...

When you make reference to land and boundaries in and around Mexico, do not forget the traditional area where the Apache roamed in the Southwest was once part of Mexico until the war and subsequent purchase with and by the States. I don't accept that the Apache were too worried about what the Mexicans considered "their" territory.

I still cannot accept what you mean by " the Taliban represents the Apache in Britland."So it is difficult for me to offer any opinion on this.


IPUK