Ted Cox and the Ridge Pit Mine

[azdave35]

Dave , I agree . Everything in this world changes every day . I saw paths which in few years became inaccesible because the brush and weed . Sometimes I couldn't recognize a region after a decade . Imagine how different would be a region in the wilds after 100 years . Totally different .

the past 20 years we have had alot of rain..so the desert is overgrown with every kind of bush and shrubbery imaginable

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Agony and Death on a Gold Rush Steamer: The Disastrous Sinking of the Side-Wheeler Yankee Blade - Grab it through Amazon!

[Carl995]

When I was out there in the 60's, everything was dead or dying.........now totally grown & green!

 

[markmar]

When I was out there in the 60's, everything was dead or dying.........now totally grown & green!

Maybe Thunder God is home again .

 

[PotBelly Jim]

When I was out there in the 60's, everything was dead or dying.........now totally grown & green!

Funny, now that you guys bring it up, the whole desert is different from how I remembered it in the '70's...I hadn't put my finger on it before...but that's it, it seems to be the stuff stays green longer between monsoons...I do know that in just the last 10 years, things have been getting progressively "wetter" up in Ash Fork...the amount of water in the canyons and cattle tanks is unreal...

 

[Curious_George]

I'd like to continue this thread by introducing Ron Feldman into the mix. I don't know if Ron is on here, but I'm hoping someone with direct access to Ted Cox's manuscripts & notes (or Ron himself) can answer this:

In Ron's book Deep Fault, on one of the last few pages (pg. 208, last paragraph), he seems to be quoting from Ted's notes, which read, in part, "Then I got mad and rebelled and was almost murdered and we separated, except that Bud, Ray, Larry & their associates regrouped and kept returning for 8 years to clean out the bullion cache, described by Geronimo."

As it seems so much of the basics of Ted's notes revolve around the Pit mine being the LDM, and the mine at Roger's Spring on Iron Mountain being used as a massive cache of gold mined by the Spanish, (left there when the massacre of Apaches vs Spanish took place), why- since Ted specifically states Bud Dunn & friends "kept returning for 8 years to clean out the bullion cache, described by Geronimo"- did anyone who found Ted's notes useful think there would be any gold left there?

If Ted's notes record this, why would HEAT have gotten a treasure trove permit, and why would they apparently believe the cache was still there?

Must have cost quite a bit to excavate by hand, hire a site archaeologist, test of the age of the wood supports in the tunnel, fuel for transport,etc. let alone lost business time, salary & wages. While everything I've read, seen & heard about Ron is that he's a stand up guy, I question whether the main purpose of the HEAT project was to prove that the Spanish had mined further North than previously thought. Can anyone answer this for me?... and why didn't Ted remove the bullion before Bud did?

 

[cactusjumper]

I'd like to continue this thread by introducing Ron Feldman into the mix. I don't know if Ron is on here, but I'm hoping someone with direct access to Ted Cox's manuscripts & notes (or Ron himself) can answer this:

In Ron's book Deep Fault, on one of the last few pages (pg. 208, last paragraph), he seems to be quoting from Ted's notes, which read, in part, "Then I got mad and rebelled and was almost murdered and we separated, except that Bud, Ray, Larry & their associates regrouped and kept returning for 8 years to clean out the bullion cache, described by Geronimo."

As it seems so much of the basics of Ted's notes revolve around the Pit mine being the LDM, and the mine at Roger's Spring on Iron Mountain being used as a massive cache of gold mined by the Spanish, (left there when the massacre of Apaches vs Spanish took place), why- since Ted specifically states Bud Dunn & friends "kept returning for 8 years to clean out the bullion cache, described by Geronimo"- did anyone who found Ted's notes useful think there would be any gold left there?

If Ted's notes record this, why would HEAT have gotten a treasure trove permit, and why would they apparently believe the cache was still there?

Must have cost quite a bit to excavate by hand, hire a site archaeologist, test of the age of the wood supports in the tunnel, fuel for transport,etc. let alone lost business time, salary & wages. While everything I've read, seen & heard about Ron is that he's a stand up guy, I question whether the main purpose of the HEAT project was to prove that the Spanish had mined further North than previously thought. Can anyone answer this for me?... and why didn't Ted remove the bullion before Bud did?

CG,

Perhaps the Heat Project was never intended to produce any treasure. You might consider that it was a "head fake" intended to screen other activities nearby.
Was the Pit Mine the target from the start. I have talked to two people who had direct involvement at the Pit Mine prior to it being opened back up. who have convinced me that it was.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Curious_George]

CG,

Perhaps the Heat Project was never intended to produce any treasure. You might consider that it was a "head fake" intended to screen other activities nearby.
Was the Pit Mine the target from the start. I have talked to two people who had direct involvement at the Pit Mine prior to it being opened back up. who have convinced me that it was.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Thanks Joe. I remember writing about that very possibility here a few years ago.. and speculating on Douglas Preston (author of 'Cities of Gold') hiring Ron's crew to pack him into the Supes, and the possibility that the folks who worked the pit mine in the mid 90's may have used the HEAT "head fake" as a means to get their gold out of the wilderness area.

I am way up in Minnesota, am 68 with advanced Parkinson's & a shattered right hip, so my Canyon hiking days are far behind me... but I am a voracious reader, and can tell bull**** when I read it. I suspect to really know what happened, I'd have to be a part of the "In" crowd in Apache Junction itself. Since I don't even know who is in the "In" crowd, I'm sure not one of 'em.

Orson Scott Card wrote an excellent book marginally about Christopher Columbus, in which a method for going back to an exact time, location & height as a movable observer was possible (w/o being seen). Sure would like to have one of those gizmos to follow ole Jacob Waltz around in his hay day.

Of course, the very idea that people connected with working with gold in a protected Wilderness area is shocking.. how could they!?!

As I've said before, part of the reason I think the pit mine IS the LDM is because of the large scale "social engineering" (lies, half truths, prevarications & gossip) that has and continues to surround the "Legend."

 

[cactusjumper]

Thanks Joe. I remember writing about that very possibility here a few years ago.. and speculating on Douglas Preston (author of 'Cities of Gold') hiring Ron's crew to pack him into the Supes, and the possibility that the folks who worked the pit mine in the mid 90's may have used the HEAT "head fake" as a means to get their gold out of the wilderness area.

I am way up in Minnesota, am 68 with advanced Parkinson's & a shattered right hip, so my Canyon hiking days are far behind me... but I am a voracious reader, and can tell bull**** when I read it. I suspect to really know what happened, I'd have to be a part of the "In" crowd in Apache Junction itself. Since I don't even know who is in the "In" crowd, I'm sure not one of 'em.

Orson Scott Card wrote an excellent book marginally about Christopher Columbus, in which a method for going back to an exact time, location & height as a movable observer was possible (w/o being seen). Sure would like to have one of those gizmos to follow ole Jacob Waltz around in his hay day.

Of course, the very idea that people connected with working with gold in a protected Wilderness area is shocking.. how could they!?!

As I've said before, part of the reason I think the pit mine IS the LDM is because of the large scale "social engineering" (lies, half truths, prevarications & gossip) that has and continues to surround the "Legend."

CG,

I believe I have told this story before, but it may be worthwhile to repeat.

A number of years ago, not really many, I invited a old friend up for a weekend. At the same time I invited an old friend of his for dinner. That person had been in my store and told me he was the one who took the pictures of the "Kochera Gold". He brought in his original 8x10 photos, later, for me to copy. He also told me he, along with two other people, had rode up to the Pit Mine. Along the way, one of those people pointed out two caches that had been emptied out. He named both of the people who were with him.
One of those people was the man I had invited up for the weekend. As we sat in my living room, the trip up to the Pit Mine was brought up. The photographer said "You remember -------, you were with us on that trip. Since he had denied knowledge of the Pit Mine to me earlier, he somewhat sheepishly admitted that he did remember.
The third person on that ride, according to the photographer, opined how-------was dying to open up the Pit Mine. At the time, it was still sealed. The "insiders" you mentioned will know who opened that mine.

At some time, I had asked the photographer if he thought the Kochera Ore might have come out of the Pit Mine, and he replied "I know it did". That may be a loose quote, but it's pretty close.

My sources are very good. For how good they are, you will have to ask the guy who opened up the mine. I believe every aspect of the above story.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[wrmickel1]

CG Cactusjumper

The tale you tell, is after the deceptive manner was dealt to the masses. If that was the spot Waltz told to Julia and Rinehart that miners needle was the location why did they set there course Using Weevers Needle, Not to mention where they camped. Your story has to many holes in it. Manufactured later in the time line. To throw other hunters off.
You both have been totally Hoodwinked.

wrmickel1

 

[cactusjumper]

CG Cactusjumper

The tale you tell, is after the deceptive manner was dealt to the masses. If that was the spot Waltz told to Julia and Rinehart that miners needle was the location why did they set there course Using Weevers Needle, Not to mention where they camped. Your story has to many holes in it. Manufactured later in the time line. To throw other hunters off.
You both have been totally Hoodwinked.

wrmickel1

WRM,

You are the one following the false trail. Julia and Rhiney could not find the place to start their search. They were doomed to failure. Herman was much closer to the truth. They all needed to start from the Milk Ranch. I suspected that years before the Pit Mine story came out.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[wrmickel1]

Joe, They New exactly how to get there and they did, Its when they left the trail they got confused, The Milkhouse is just added later, like known Dutchman's Ore being white, You know the earliest newspapers said it was Rose color, Julia was so sure of the directions were so easy to follow she sold everything.
Thats pretty damm confident I'd say. You followed to many people that, in your favorite phrase.
From Sources that are very good.

wrmickel1

 

[azdave35]

Joe, They New exactly how to get there and they did, Its when they left the trail they got confused, The Milkhouse is just added later, like known Dutchman's Ore being white, You know the earliest newspapers said it was Rose color, Julia was so sure of the directions were so easy to follow she sold everything.
Thats pretty damm confident I'd say. You followed to many people that, in your favorite phrase.
From Sources that are very good.

wrmickel1

mick..there has been many people that have sold everything they own to go on a fools errand and come up empty handed

 

[wrmickel1]

Dave

Sure, But Julia supplied the information to the early newspaper reports and where they went and camped and backed up by the other two that went with her.
But in the end she lost.

Wrmickel1

 

[Curious_George]

CG,

I believe I have told this story before, but it may be worthwhile to repeat.

A number of years ago, not really many, I invited a old friend up for a weekend. At the same time I invited an old friend of his for dinner. That person had been in my store and told me he was the one who took the pictures of the "Kochera Gold". He brought in his original 8x10 photos, later, for me to copy. He also told me he, along with two other people, had rode up to the Pit Mine. Along the way, one of those people pointed out two caches that had been emptied out. He named both of the people who were with him.
One of those people was the man I had invited up for the weekend. As we sat in my living room, the trip up to the Pit Mine was brought up. The photographer said "You remember -------, you were with us on that trip. Since he had denied knowledge of the Pit Mine to me earlier, he somewhat sheepishly admitted that he did remember.
The third person on that ride, according to the photographer, opined how-------was dying to open up the Pit Mine. At the time, it was still sealed. The "insiders" you mentioned will know who opened that mine.

At some time, I had asked the photographer if he thought the Kochera Ore might have come out of the Pit Mine, and he replied "I know it did". That may be a loose quote, but it's pretty close.

My sources are very good. For how good they are, you will have to ask the guy who opened up the mine. I believe every aspect of the above story.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

I always enjoy your accounts, Joe, and would love more of them-- all the ones I've read have the ring of authenticity to them. Guess I can do a search of all your posts.

Ever played with the idea of writing a book? I'd volunteer to edit it, if you do.

BTW, I also offered to edit Jack's book through Frank A., as my experience has been that LDM books tend to have too, many, commas. Frank said Jack already had someone and, as I'm sure you've read his book, look how that turned out. Great book that IMO would have benefited from another pass by a new set of editing eyes.

 

[wrmickel1]

CG

You'll find in this game, "A new set of eye's" will make you a Villain" to the establishment! Most of them have forged a Providence and twisted there very name into the ledgen, From forged affidavits to trinkets to a very piece of known Dutchman ore. Manuscripts that appear out of the blue with No known ties to anyone.

Wrmickel1

 

[Curious_George]

CG

You'll find in this game, "A new set of eye's" will make you a Villain" to the establishment! Most of them have forged a Providence and twisted there very name into the ledgen, From forged affidavits to trinkets to a very piece of known Dutchman ore. Manuscripts that appear out of the blue with No known ties to anyone.

Wrmickel1

Boy, and here all I wanted was a free copy of the book.

Guess I gotta remember there really is evil, and evil people in the world.

The LDM is not just an interesting puzzle, it's also a Rorschach test for character & clear thinking. Thanks for the heads up, wrmickel1.

It helps me understand why so many close to the Legend are suspicious, paranoid and not trusting. In that sense, I'm probably more like Dr. Glover than I thought. Here I thought he was the one with an overly rosy view of the old boys club, "we're just all good buddies here." I guess, since I'm at a remove of 1500 miles from the Supes, I can be a bit more objective/ dispassionate about it & talking with others about it.

It's an interesting experience. I am not used to not being trusted. In my world, I am used to being trusted. Makes sense to have a bit of a part of you that doesn't trust people you don't know well yet, for safety sake.

Look at Ted Cox & Bud Dunn.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Boy, and here all I wanted was a free copy of the book.

Guess I gotta remember there really is evil, and evil people in the world.

The LDM is not just an interesting puzzle, it's also a Rorschach test for character & clear thinking. Thanks for the heads up, wrmickel1.

It helps me understand why so many close to the Legend are suspicious, paranoid and not trusting. In that sense, I'm probably more like Dr. Glover than I thought. Here I thought he was the one with an overly rosy view of the old boys club, "we're just all good buddies here." I guess, since I'm at a remove of 1500 miles from the Supes, I can be a bit more objective/ dispassionate about it & talking with others about it.

It's an interesting experience. I am not used to not being trusted. In my world, I am used to being trusted. Makes sense to have a bit of a part of you that doesn't trust people you don't know well yet, for safety sake.

Look at Ted Cox & Bud Dunn.

Well said. There are/were some real "characters" out there, jealously guarding what's most likely fake maps and clues. That's what happens when we close down insane asylums in this country...they're all free to buy a six-shooter and make their way to the Supes...

Don't pay too much mind to Mick...he gets loose from that tree his wife tied him to, he hits the sauce and goes off on a tear

Is your you-tube video still up Mick?

 

[wrmickel1]

Well said. There are/were some real "characters" out there, jealously guarding what's most likely fake maps and clues. That's what happens when we close down insane asylums in this country...they're all free to buy a six-shooter and make their way to the Supes...

Don't pay too much mind to Mick...he gets loose from that tree his wife tied him to, he hits the sauce and goes off on a tear

Is your you-tube video still up Mick?

Which video, I have a lot of them, Ohh and I don't drink. All I'm saying is, if someone had solid proof of anything outside the established Dutchman's ledgen it would make a lot of guardians of the ledgen, frauds. And some walk out becoming very successful in life, But in the chatter, jealous hunters claim they found this or that to justify there success. It's a never ending viscous cycle.

Wrmickel1

 

[azdave35]

Which video, I have a lot of them, Ohh and I don't drink. All I'm saying is, if someone had solid proof of anything outside the established Dutchman's ledgen it would make a lot of guardians of the ledgen, frauds. And some walk out becoming very successful in life, But in the chatter, jealous hunters claim they found this or that to justify there success. It's a never ending viscous cycle.

Wrmickel1

mick doesn't drink?

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Which video, I have a lot of them, Ohh and I don't drink. All I'm saying is, if someone had solid proof of anything outside the established Dutchman's ledgen it would make a lot of guardians of the ledgen, frauds. And some walk out becoming very successful in life, But in the chatter, jealous hunters claim they found this or that to justify there success. It's a never ending viscous cycle.

Wrmickel1

The video of "Tie my P*&6%$ to a tree", of course...

Hope all is well with you Mick, you don't seem to be your happy-go-lucky self...

"Never ending viscous cycle"...are you talking about a lava lamp?

Take care, amigo

Jim