Teach Me--PLEASE !

[yadkin-hunter]

Hello fellow artifact collectors, just a thought.I've been collecting artifacts for about 10 years now, I have a fair collection that i'am proud of,man hours of walking,sweating and straining my pupils to obtain most of what I have.When i'am not in the great outdoors trying to add to my collection I find myself either reading about artifacts or talking to someone about them,you might say i'am hooked.The thing is I can't tell you the number of articles I've read that eventually lead to the term of looting or destroying the sites,don't get me wrong, I do not believe or condone in anyone breaking the law,and I respect archeologist but man please, when they say that nothing can be learned from a site after all the amateurs have been there.Would someone please tell me in some sort of detail what they think they might find that they have not already found.

 

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[Tnmountains]

Very interesting question Yadkin that I will let others consider. In the South East United States it is a fact that the federal government is probably the entity that has destroyed more ancient sites than all looting combined could ever acheive. They flooded hundreds of square miles with thousands of ancient sites under water. They dug samplings or a fraction from all over before impoundments. I guess that, because they destroyed so much already, they protect whats left. We do not see any ground breaking discoverys today. Thank goodness we have many good sites on private land we can collect and appreciate even the broken items instead of it sitting in a box in a dusty old room.

 

[uniface]

Academics come out with some of the most outrageous nonsense you'll find anywhere outside of religion and politics.

What they basically want is for stuff to be in undisturbed, stratified contexts. There is a good point to this, but the idea (ideal) quickly becomes an article of faith (belief). Belief being immune to logic and common sense, it's then claimed that anything "out of context" is "scientifically worthless." Which is plain ol' feces. If that were true, they wouldn't be agitating for collectors to donate what they find to museums.

It gets even sillier when many of them advocate that it's better for artifacts to be destroyed by farming than for collectors to pick them up.

They carry on high about the importance of recording location data on found relics -- except that nobody ever looks at this. Because there are more sites than you can shake a stick at and nobody's trying to keep up with what's found on them. Same deal when they insist that (to hear them tell it) "the right thing to do" is to donate all finds to them. They've already accumulated so much stuff by now that government auditors have found cases of them throwing it out because there was no room to store it.

They do have a legitimate gripe with site looters. Really. They do. But for them to generalise this into a blanket condemnation of all artifact collectors is just over the top.

A lot of public pronouncements in archaeology like that are just over-the-top posturing by people posing as a moral elite. They are safely ignored after the laughter dies down.

 

[RGINN]

I agree with Uniface. I would like to know the context artifacts were found in, particularly if I had the time to go out to all the many sites there are. Y'all just leave them there, I'll get around to it. Here in Colorado, they they recently busted a lot of folks for selling artifacts. Two of the suspected have committed suicide. Others have given up their collections and are trying to work out plea deals. It seems like the Feds were focusing mostly on people selling artifacts from protected sites. I don't know what to think about all that.

 

[Jonnyreb]

Intresting subject that pops up on every forum I've ever visited.
Now please forgive me if I ramble a little bit here, but its all about the MONEY.
In my lifetime, when I was a kid, I can remember being able to get 50 cents or so for a NICE birdpoint (true arrowhead), and spearpoints could fetch a whopping five to twenty bucks. A nice complete dart point was say, an average of a dollar or two. Clovis points, dove tails, etc., could be as high as a hundred bucks or so, but relics back then, in the mid 70's early 80's, carried LOW monetary values. (Whole Caddo pots were only worth around 20 to 50 bucks)
Now that said, there were a lot of collectors anyway who still liked finding relics and not selling them.
Along about the late 70's, values began to rise as more collectors came in on the scene and it was no longer a "country boy or girl's peculiar hobby". These were people who were ready to buy, and for some price no issue.
Well, it just so happened that the archies suddenly became very intrested in what private collectors had, and we all became "looters" or as National Geographic Magazine called us..."THEIVES OF TIME". Heck before that, nobody even cared if you picked up an artifact in public land or not. Now, they would have you executed if they could get away with it. BUT, if you want to veiw for instance the "Galt blade cache" found in Franklin Co. Tex. in the 1930's, well, they were stolen from the TARL lab during the time that artifacts became more valuable. I KNOW of archies who have amassed large collections from stealing from universty labs and from sites they were studying, but they are the first to call us looters.
Then you have this aspect to think about. For a professional archie, his job is to go out and check on reported sites. Now for a site to be reported means that most probably a private collector was out there and realized they had stumbled across something of possible importance right?
Well, you see, they draw a state or federal salary whether they get dirty or not, so they are better off if they can somehow make people afraid to collect OR report a site, and they can just draw free money off you and me.
As far as respect for archeologists, I must say that I have only known a couple that I respect, one is in Texarkana and understands the value of collectors, and the other is deceased, but was as nice a gentleman as you'd ever want to meet, and that was Greg Perino. He lived across the river from me in Idabel, OK.
Hope this sheds some light on the harsh language used against us.
My personal policy anymore is DONT talk to or cooperate in any way with archies. They are a treacherous lot and would steal everything you own.

 

[Th3rty7]

You could get an online archaeology degree and then go rob graves and burial sites without consequence or respect for others. Hypocrisy

 

[Tnmountains]

You would think that since its inception here at T-Net that there would be at least one Archeologist to have had the gonads to join and chime in. I will admit that many of our finds are humble but on occasion we have fellow members find and post some pretty significant items. I do not know of any other site on the internet where people come together in this volume and share their ancient artifacts. Are archeologist blind to our existence or do they feel it would belittle themselves to give an opinion ? Maybe its a fear of not always knowing the answer?

 

[Jonnyreb]

You would think that since its inception here at T-Net that there would be at least one Archeologist to have had the gonads to join and chime in. I will admit that many of our finds are humble but on occasion we have fellow members find and post some pretty significant items. I do not know of any other site on the internet where people come together in this volume and share their ancient artifacts. Are archeologist blind to our existence or do they feel it would belittle themselves to give an opinion ? Maybe its a fear of not always knowing the answer?

Well, there have been some on a couple of other forums, but they never chime in. They are what we call "lurkers" on those other two forums.
I know of at least one incident where a fellow collector was doing a lot of lake hunting here in E. Texas and posting his finds and telling exactly where he was finding them. That place is closed off to the public now. I'm sure that there are archies who come onto this site and check it out. Just so they can do things like that. Another bit of advice, if you in your scouting about run across say...human remains washing out of a creek bank, or plow some up in your watermelon patch, DO NOT say or post anything about it. Another incident, a lurker almost caused a caver to do some jail time over having found, but not removing a human mandible in a cave that she was exploring. The archies went NUTS over it. So be careful what you post.

 

[Tnmountains]

You would think that since its inception here at T-Net that there would be at least one Archeologist to have had the gonads to join and chime in. I will admit that many of our finds are humble but on occasion we have fellow members find and post some pretty significant items. I do not know of any other site on the internet where people come together in this volume and share their ancient artifacts. Are archeologist blind to our existence or do they feel it would belittle themselves to give an opinion ? Maybe its a fear of not always knowing the answer?

. Another bit of advice, if you in your scouting about run across say...human remains washing out of a creek bank, or plow some up in your watermelon patch, DO NOT say or post anything about it. Another incident, a lurker almost caused a caver to do some jail time over having found, but not removing a human mandible in a cave that she was exploring. The archies went NUTS over it. So be careful what you post.

I do wonder why she would do jail time ? The law states you are not supposed to remove human remains. People are so blind. If you take your time and look you will see broken lower mandibles almost anywhere you find artifacts. I talked to an old farmer long time ago that said he carried a bat on his tractor to knock out the skulls that got stuck in his plow. I do not know if this is true but the law states you may plow your fields human remains or not. Just do not pick them up. I guess you just keep plowing it all to pieces. I think the Archeologist are the ones to blame for any future sharing of information.
Always hunt private property is the best advice and then no one can say anything.

 

[bravowhiskey]

Archies...what a bunch of elitist snobs.

If one was really interested in their craft, they would realize and admit that learning can and does come from all levels.

JMO,
BW

 

[SoIll]

We're all archaeologist.
Sorry, but if I could go back to school it would mean a bachelors in archaeology.
I know what you mean (TNmountains) about a professional coming forward on these boards, but who needs this kind of drama.
You can't make blanket accusations on any people. In academia there are a lot of elitist that think they're better than you.
But tell me what aspect of life that doesn't have those same kind of people/attitudes?

I've been thinking about this for awhile. We have to be bigger.
Progress will happen.
We can't look like the bad guys with inflammatory post like these.

To answer your question Yadkin-hunter of what could be found:
How about a clovis skeleton, or an intact atl-atl with a bannerstone.
You could never know what's important before they find it because they haven't found it yet.

Again I'm not trying to bash collectors or professionals, I'm just having a debate here.

 

[Tnmountains]

We're all archaeologist.
Sorry, but if I could go back to school it would mean a bachelors in archaeology.
I know what you mean (TNmountains) about a professional coming forward on these boards, but who needs this kind of drama.
You can't make blanket accusations on any people. In academia there are a lot of elitist that think they're better than you.
But tell me what aspect of life that doesn't have those same kind of people/attitudes?

I've been thinking about this for awhile. We have to be bigger.
Progress will happen.
We can't look like the bad guys with inflammatory post like these.

To answer your question Yadkin-hunter of what could be found:
How about a Clovis skeleton, or an intact atl-atl with a bannerstone.
You could never know what's important before they find it because they haven't found it yet.

Again I'm not trying to bash collectors or professionals, I'm just having a debate here.

I agree with you and I have tried to the best of my humble ability to be professional in these discussions. I know people on both side of the fence and realise my Southern views may not always be politically correct and surely not mean to be inflammatory but the hackles do rise @ times. I also seek justification in my hobby as amateur archaeologist thru knowledge. I believe that the word amateur is a French word meaning the "Love of" and I think that is what we all share and try to reflect here.
Yes the elusive Paleo site is out there and in it, is the bones and the flutes and the charcoal. I feel it will be found in a rock shelter on the Cumberland escarpment or something similar the trick will be to recognise it as a single occupation site and leave it to the Academics so it may say the date 14,500
(?) bp. Guess....
P.s the spear chunker had been found and dated in context already and the banner stone was as nice as you had time or material to make it. It was a silencer and added kinetic force is current theory ??
Sorry Bravo did not mean to piggy back your post.
HH
TnMtns

 

[yadkin-hunter]

We're all archaeologist.
Sorry, but if I could go back to school it would mean a bachelors in archaeology.
I know what you mean (TNmountains) about a professional coming forward on these boards, but who needs this kind of drama.
You can't make blanket accusations on any people. In academia there are a lot of elitist that think they're better than you.
But tell me what aspect of life that doesn't have those same kind of people/attitudes?

I've been thinking about this for awhile. We have to be bigger.
Progress will happen.
We can't look like the bad guys with inflammatory post like these.

To answer your question Yadkin-hunter of what could be found:
How about a clovis skeleton, or an intact atl-atl with a bannerstone.
You could never know what's important before they find it because they haven't found it yet.

Again I'm not trying to bash collectors or professionals, I'm just having a debate here.

That's fair and good, but I still don't think you understand what I'am getting at, to rephrase my question, when reading archeology material, I see over and over giving as what seems to be the be the reason archeological sites should only allowed to be studied, dug up, recorded etc. is because of what they archeologist say they might learn,I'am all for learning and can appreciate the work and effort that comes from the many countless hours spent by archeoligist in the past and present. I just see this as just a cover statement to try and justify certain laws, I think there are still many discoveries to be found but I don't believe there is some wonderful secret that would change the world or justify some of these laws,if I'am wrong,so be it ,but until someone can explain this in some detail,I stand wondering.To comment on the clovis skeleton, that would be great but still no reason why it could not be discovered by an amateur.

 

[Jonnyreb]

To answere your question Yadkin, a lot of archies feel somewhat threatened by us amateurs you see.
I know of finds that have been discovered by amateurs that were important, but since an archeologist didnt find it, they were ignored, or were "hi jacked" so to speak and the archie got the credit for finding it instead of the true finder.
I suppose when G. Perino died back in 04, the last of the breed went away too.
He studied artifacts collected by amateurs and professionals alike. Instead of berating farmers and such for digging up pots, he simply asked questions about where, when, how deep, anything else found with it, etc.
He was someone you could sit and talk with for hours on end.
I learned a lot from him (not near enough)
We need the "professionals" to open up again because we wont be going away anytime soon.
BTW, I think this is a cool debate you started.

 

[SoIll]

To answere your question Yadkin, a lot of archies feel somewhat threatened by us amateurs you see.
I know of finds that have been discovered by amateurs that were important, but since an archeologist didnt find it, they were ignored, or were "hi jacked" so to speak and the archie got the credit for finding it instead of the true finder.
I suppose when G. Perino died back in 04, the last of the breed went away too.
He studied artifacts collected by amateurs and professionals alike. Instead of berating farmers and such for digging up pots, he simply asked questions about where, when, how deep, anything else found with it, etc.
He was someone you could sit and talk with for hours on end.
I learned a lot from him (not near enough)
We need the "professionals" to open up again because we wont be going away anytime soon.
BTW, I think this is a cool debate you started.

I agree.

 

[SoIll]

That's fair and good, but I still don't think you understand what I'am getting at, to rephrase my question, when reading archeology material, I see over and over giving as what seems to be the be the reason archeological sites should only allowed to be studied, dug up, recorded etc. is because of what they archeologist say they might learn,I'am all for learning and can appreciate the work and effort that comes from the many countless hours spent by archeoligist in the past and present. I just see this as just a cover statement to try and justify certain laws, I think there are still many discoveries to be found but I don't believe there is some wonderful secret that would change the world or justify some of these laws,if I'am wrong,so be it ,but until someone can explain this in some detail,I stand wondering.To comment on the clovis skeleton, that would be great but still no reason why it could not be discovered by an amateur.

There are a lot of stupid laws. Esp. ones on rivers and streams and out of context surface finds.
That's the government for you.
I can understand protecting sites that are not in danger too.
Have you ever heard of anyone getting in trouble for surface collecting though?

 

[Tnmountains]

e
Have you ever heard of anyone getting in trouble for surface collecting though?

Yes he said he was on a waterway surface collecting. I was on a waterway fishing and talked to him.

 

[Jonnyreb]

e
Have you ever heard of anyone getting in trouble for surface collecting though?

Yes he said he was on a waterway surface collecting. I was on a waterway fishing and talked to him. Lake Texarkana is one place to get into trouble.
A lake patrolman there specializes in nabbing surface collectors, confiscating the artifacts, and consigning them to a guy in Linden, Texas who sells artifacts on the internet. (Texarkana Lake is a Corps of Eng. lake)