TALES OF LOST JESUIT MINES

[gollum]

Hey Joe,

So everybody is on the same page here, I have posted pics here.

What you call Teutonic Crosses (highlighted in red), to me, don't look like anything but flourishes on the cross (just like in your pic). Not at all like Teutonic Crosses (see pic 2). The silver bar commemorating Padre Saeta (pic 4) has a perfect teutonic cross on the back. Just because St. Francis took it as his, and the Franciscan Order used it, does that make it impossible for others to have used it as well? Teutonic means German. How many of the Jesuit Priests were German? The Teutonic Cross has been in existence since 1191AD. Think that the German Jesuits may have seen it?

What you call St. George's Crosses would encompass most all of the bars on the table (not just a couple). I think they are just simple crosses to signify the maker (owner).

The only one that really gives me any worry is what appears to be an almost Maltese Cross in the middle of the table, but the Maltese Cross had been around for a long time as well.

Best-Mike

 

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[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Do you have any reason to believe that any cross, other than the standard Christian cross would have been used on these bars? The standard Catholic cross is used many times here. One example is just above the two Kino bars.

Are there other historic examples of the cross on the Kino bars being used in Mexico during the time of Kino?

Many thanks,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

This is a silver ingot from the Atocha. Notice the simplicity of the marking. Most of the markings on the bars on the table, are labor intensive. What method of casting do you believe was used? As I recall, could be wrong, all of the table treasure was found in one cache. Do you know if that's true?

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Hey Joe,

Yes, that table full was supposed to have come from the same recovery site, and as it's on my "To Do" List, I won't go into too much detail, other than to say they would have come from many different mining and smelting operations.

To answer your first question...Yes also. I think that it is entirely within reason for many of these bars to have varying designs (the reason is in para #1). I am trying not to sound too cryptic, but I also don't want to broadcast too much info either.

I will also have to add my disclaimer here. I can't say for certain that these bars are not fakes. I believe that they are authentic, but not having examined them myself, I just can't say for certain. I can only judge by some things I have read. Seeing some interesting things some others have found, that I have seen, and some interesting things others have found, that I have spoken to them and have no reason to doubt their veracity.

There were two men who moved into the Phoenix Area in the 1960s. John J. Ford Jr, and Paul G. Franklin. These two men are widely thought to have forged dozens of fake gold and silver bars, as well as gold coins. Most of their supposed fakes were California Gold Rush Era Assayers Bars (commonly referred to as the "western bars"). About twenty of their fakes were supposedly from Colonial Mexico (commonly referred to as the "Mexican Bars" see pics). Many people believe they are authentic, but I for one, DO NOT. One look at the pic will tell you.

Best-Mike

 

[Cubfan64]

Hi Gollum - I have nothing to add to this thread, but wanted to give your website a plug. The Reference section is really valuable - I love all the books!!

Thanks and I look forward to you adding more material.

 

[gollum]

Thanks.

I have tons of info and not enough time.

Best-Mike

 

[Chagy]

The Jesuits: an historical sketch
By Edward William Grinfield page 207
This correspondence fell into the hands of Maurice of Nassau, and procured the nickname—" The Contraband of the Jesuits"—
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Portugal 1715-1808: Joanine, Pombaline And Rococo Portugal As Seen by ...
By David Francis Page 131
... with various accusations including an undue part in trading activities and in contraband traffic. Almeida produced damning evidence of Jesuit activities ...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jesuits: their principles and acts
By Edward Dalton Page 281
"Were all the ships that reached her shore to perform quarantine till the revenue officers had ascertained that there were no contraband Jesuits on board ? ...

 

[Chagy]

This book provides the source from AGI

http://books.google.com/books?id=Tp...suit+contraband&lr=&ei=KCeXSMi6K5y8jgGyuOzHDA

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

One of the key things to look at in these artifacts, is uniformity of the edges. Almost all of this type of artifact has edges cut off to reach a specific weight. If they are all uniform and smooth, it's suspect. In those times, simplicity was the rule on the frontier.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Sorry Joe,

That does not apply (from what I have heard ) to Jesuit Bars (or any other secretly worked bars).

These were not run through any mint where exact weight would be an issue. These type of bars were absolutely unofficial. From what I have seen and heard, the only markings on the bars were what the smelter wished to put on them (which was usually the name of the originating entity [Altar Bars], martyr dedication [the Padre Saeta Bar], personal dedication [Kino and De Vargas Bars], or simple markings [cross and "V"]).

Naturally, there are no documents to back up my statement. I have simply come to this conclusion based on seeing many different types of bars.

Another note on the bars possibly being faked. I don't place tons of faith on the simple existence of Silver Bars. Silver was not regulated from 1933 until 1978 as was Gold. Silver has always been much cheaper and therefore much easier to fake larger quantities. For me to assert that any silver Bars are not fakes, I would usually like to know the history or absolutely trust the finder. Gold has always been on the expensive side, and if I know of say a large quantity of gold bars found, I can fairly safely assume that they were not faked.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Thanks for your reply.

I would assume that the only reason for faking these artifacts, would be to sell them to people who would not bother to check their authenticity. That would most likely be private parties buying only a few for souvenirs.

If real, they would obviously be worth much more than the gold or silver content. I have a hard time buying that the finder could not dig them up on private property and have legal claim to ownership. Only one would need to be tested for authenticity to put the others in a good light.

I assume there are good reasons that has not been done.

Take care,

Joe

 

[BILL96]

Mike,
I think this may have been ask before but why would anyone producing "secret bars" want to put any type of identification marks on them? If I were producing something like that I sure wouldn't want to advertise it.
Bill

 

[Cubfan64]

Mike,
I think this may have been ask before but why would anyone producing "secret bars" want to put any type of identification marks on them? If I were producing something like that I sure wouldn't want to advertise it.
Bill

That's a good question and actually something I've wondered myself. One would think that just a small symbol or sign of some type just to indicate to the maker that they are HIS would suffice no?

 

[gollum]

Mike,

Thanks for your reply.

I would assume that the only reason for faking these artifacts, would be to sell them to people who would not bother to check their authenticity. That would most likely be private parties buying only a few for souvenirs.

If real, they would obviously be worth much more than the gold or silver content. I have a hard time buying that the finder could not dig them up on private property and have legal claim to ownership. Only one would need to be tested for authenticity to put the others in a good light.

I assume there are good reasons that has not been done.

Take care,

Joe

The Archaeological Resources Protection Act (ARPA) of 1979 has been interpreted several times to take precedence over private property laws. Anything deemed of archaeological importance that is over 100 years old, can be confiscated if the Archies think it is important enough.

According to the owner, the Altar and Kino Gold/Silver Bars have been tested. As the silver bars in the B&W Pics were found before I was born, and I don't know where they are now, I couldn't possibly answer that question. I do know that if I were asked to spend many times the spot silver or gold price for such bars, I would absolutely want them tested.

Best-Mike

 

[Twisted Fork]

Good morning ORO: sorry to get in to this soo late but ----sniff.

you posted ----->

yet the great gold fields of the Mother Lode country went un-discovered! How can we explain this?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Were they? Only the oficial discovery by Marshal is recorded.

Don Jose de La Mancha

The mines to look for are hidden under small boulders or smaller rock piles and they are landscaped to make them blend in. This is why they are as illusive as the Jesuits. They came through much earlier than anyone else and hid the true mother lodes that are for the most part, right under the noses of many miners past and present; some who may have found successful gold deposits in various areas but not the actual mother lodes per say. Many are still to be found.

 

[cactusjumper]

Good morning ORO: sorry to get in to this soo late but ----sniff.

you posted ----->

yet the great gold fields of the Mother Lode country went un-discovered! How can we explain this?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Were they? Only the oficial discovery by Marshal is recorded.

Don Jose de La Mancha

The mines to look for are hidden under small boulders or smaller rock piles and they are landscaped to make them blend in. This is why they are as illusive as the Jesuits. They came through much earlier than anyone else and hid the true mother lodes that are for the most part, right under the noses of many miners past and present; some who may have found successful gold deposits in various areas but not the actual mother lodes per say. Many are still to be found.

Really! And you know this..........how?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"Also, one of the greatest treasures known but never found are all the gold items the Incas were bringing to pay for the release of Atahualpa. Pizarro held the King for ransom, and stated that when one room of the palace was filled with gold Atahualpa would be released. When the room was filled with gold, Pizarro had Atahualpa killed. There were trains of gold flowing to Quito. Much more than was necessary to win Atahualpa's release. As soon as the people found out Atahualpa had been killed, the threw all the gold into deep chasms and deep lakes in the mountains. One of the greatest known gold objects was an 800 foot gold chain that had been made to celebrate the birth of Atahualpa's Son."

Can you tell us at what point in time the Jesuits became involved with Atahualpa's treasure?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[diggemall]

tag

 

[gollum]

Joe,

I just reread my post, and I have to apologize. The Incan Treasure Story has absolutely nothing to do with the Jesuits. Must have been in the middle of a psychotic episode when I typed that.

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HIL Gully, no apol needed, just stop using the happy weed when typing, only Bb my missing friend gets away with that.. Is My Ramge Rover still ok?

Don Jose de La Mancha