sunken Manila galleons 1575-1806

[XLV]

enrada correct i also seen gold , gems and jewelry listed on the 19 outbound ships to mexico ..... remember all the gold mined here how it get back to spain

 

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[XLV]

tom the treasures are here be it spanish silver or blood gold the problem is finding and keeping it .....the permit is 50% -50% in the sea minus any artifacts ....anything i find thats not gold or silver bars or coins goes straight to the museum

 

[BobTheDigger]

Your reaction and long rambling monologue says "plenty" about yourself.

While it appears you have stalking me across the forums. You drove me off Yamashita forum. I post else where your up my ass again. Are you in love with me or do have some beef with me?

What really annoys me is the way you write. You might be nice guy in person but you come across as pumped up egotistical condescending know it all wanting talk down to people.

Either you do it intentionally for the love of an needless argument or you use forums for a power trip you do not have in real life.

Its really grating and painful....Pain I do no have time for this crap because seriously I have life.

I suggest you get one too.

Mal - I've enjoyed reading the posts from you that I have come across on here. You have provided good facts. Don't let one bad apple on here spoil the bunch! There is a lot of interesting history and many shipwrecks to be found. Theories can be made with the information that is available, but the facts lie within the shipwrecks. Perhaps laden with treasure, perhaps not. Only one way to find out! Best wishes on your quests!

I've learned to just ignore/bypass posts from certain folks. The forums are much better this way. The best thing to do is not respond to them at all. Some are just bored or lonely and beg for attention. Any response is what they are looking for so don't give them what they want. Some people know a little about a lot of things, but don't know a lot about anything. They have to feel involved one way or another.


***Also, I shall pointlessly add that this is said in a respectful, non-badgering, constructive, friendly, fair, blah...blah...blah...***


Have a nice day!
Moving on...

 

[agflit]

Mal-


I enjoy your thoughts and respect your experiances very much, and think. that sadly, it would be both a loss, as well as unfair, for you to be run off by a naysayer. Please understand and appreciate that there are those, and we are many, who relish the exchange of information that occurs, and appreciate the knowledge gained from the vast array of people who share these forums..

There are times in life, that we unfortunately, come across individuals who, for whatever reasons, engage in "debate" ( and I use that term VERY loosely) in manners that are at the best, disenfranchising, and at worst, just plain badgering and nasty. Don't allow those (people), regardless of they're level of unhappiness and toxicity, to deter you from the sharing of information and ideas amongst yourself and others. I have watched a specific individual for the last several years engage in the same behavioral pattern, moving from forum to forum to forum, sowing the seeds of negativity and discord, all in, at best I can imagine, a pathetic attempt to bolster their own sense of importance thru argument, misinformation, and intellectual pecker measuring ad nauseam...
I have learned that trying to engage in any form of logic with this person is simply a waste of time, energy, and effort. Just ignore that kind of behavior, and don't allow they're warped sense of self to self rightousness to influence YOUR place in the world here.
And yes, I fully expect an "open" response to occur... they simply will not be able to NOT respond. I will simply ignore it, and not waste any of my time, or invest myself emotionally or intellectually... I would much rather engage in the sharing of thoughts and knowledge with people such as yourself where I may actually learn something new, share a story, or just "enjoy" the conversation taking place. I would implore you to try and do the same.

You have a wealth of information, insight and experiance to share that we can al draw from... real "mariners", the sailors of the world exotic...are becoming few and far between. Understand, that many appreciate and respect, others here. I hope you will take that for what it's worth...

Look forward to seeing more of you.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Mal, I do not recall posting to specifically target any topics of yours, or you, in the past. I am sorry you feel this way about views that dissent from yours (that someone taking a contrary view, is therefore "up your @ss" and "doesn't have a life", etc....

I saw the thread title "Manila galleons" and chimed in with my opinion that they were not laden with gold and silver on their return voyage (aside from a pay-box @ the captain's bunk). And perhaps if ones could be dove on, that were on their east-bound leg, then sure: Silver and/or gold. And sure: There's other reasons to wreck-dive, other than silver and gold. The porcelains shown in these pix are cool, and may have collector value ?

Again: Sorry for upsetting you. I do not recall you from any past topic (Yamashita, etc....). But please be aware, that forums are for pro/con discussions. So.... some people might have a different view than yours

 

[enrada]

South Sea mariner

DON"T go anywhere unless you are behind the wheel of a ship!!!

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Mal, I do not recall posting to specifically target any topics of yours, or you, in the past. I am sorry you feel this way about views that dissent from yours (that someone taking a contrary view, is therefore "up your @ss" and "doesn't have a life", etc....

I saw the thread title "Manila galleons" and chimed in with my opinion that they were not laden with gold and silver on their return voyage (aside from a pay-box @ the captain's bunk). And perhaps if ones could be dove on, that were on their east-bound leg, then sure: Silver and/or gold. And sure: There's other reasons to wreck-dive, other than silver and gold. The porcelains shown in these pix are cool, and may have collector value ?

Again: Sorry for upsetting you. I do not recall you from any past topic (Yamashita, etc....). But please be aware, that forums are for pro/con discussions. So.... some people might have a different view than yours

Tom, we have had multiple complaints about you, the constant badgering of members, condensending attitude and attacking of threads you disagree with on a range of topics from the LRL forum, Dowsing, Ship wreak, Yamashita forums. It is way past getting old, now your driving members away.

 

[XLV]

i can understand where tom coming from on some of the topics his bad experiences in mexico give him good reasons to question the facts .... theres plenty of scam artists treasure hunters in the world even mel fisher was first thought to have seeded the site ....these ship wrecks have made billions for tourism in the philippines ,,,,thousands of phoney stories made thousands of dive shops ....i dont want to mention blood gold treasure because am totally sick of the stupid BS stories and scams yes some are true but majority just stupid ....so tom attitude must be understood ....checks and balances

 

[Tom_in_CA]

...thousands of phoney stories made thousands of dive shops ....... the stupid BS stories and scams yes some are true but majority just stupid ....so tom attitude must be understood ....checks and balances

Thanx 666. And yes, I'll try not to "come on so hard" with dissenting views.

As for the stories/legends you speak of: Yes, the Philippines culture is steeped in them. But I wouldn't classify them all as "made up" (as in ... someone doing it intentionally). Or "scams" (as in ... deliberate deception). In probably most of the cases, they start very sincerely. And then they go into rabbit trails. Where no person, along the daisy-chain, was less than sincere, honest, etc....

All the ones I got sucked into doing in Mexico, were told quite sincerely to me. And they all sounded so iron-clad true (a detector would make child's play on finding more, etc...). But once I got down there, and started sleuthing more deeply into the stories, then.... they start to unravel. All the things that were "first person singular" when told to me in the USA, turn out to be "he said she said" back to infinity. But as each person passes on the stories, they continually get told in "first person singular"

Eg.: "My friend saw the coins being dug". But when you finally track down that "friend", well, it turns out he didn't actually see any coins. Instead, he knows the guy who saw them. So you track down THAT person. And guess what ? And so on back to infinity. And nobody is less than 100% sincere.

I began to wonder if the same psychology manifests itself elsewhere in the "legends" too. Human nature is the same world-wide, after all. Some cultures are a little more prone to it than others. But the bottom line is: We all love a good treasure story, and no one wants to be "left out". So the psychology goes.

 

[XLV]

back to the manila galleons ...i looked in my notes one ship shipwrecked near oregon washington border in 1693 .....the local story goes the silver coins were used in the local trade with the native americans most of the crew survived and settled in that area .... that might be the answer to tom ship wreck ....in the middle 1990s some group from the us said they found a wreck site on the coast north of samar ....and the one in northern luzon i think that was in the 1980s american treasure hunter was jailed i think a hundred million in silver was recovered ...and one last thing i remembered during the ming dynasty silver was the currency the chinese wanted ....

 

[XLV]

just for a better understanding the area the spanish galleon route 1493-1574 ....zubu (cebu) to spain route all the ships were built in spain and much smaller ....this route u were more likely to be attacked by moro pirates ...after studying some photos from about 1880 and what i seen and heard in cebu , bohol , and negros it came to me that this was a very real every day problem up to about 1900 ..what the photos to me showed was the center of the village was the church and there was at least 100 meters to the water in the southern island of negros (aka the name snatcher city today ) what i seen in cebu they had guards and watch towers along the coast ...this and the pacific crossing was safer to mexico is what lead to the big move to manila and the end to the old route...so wreck sites in the south are very rare maybe 1 or 2 the most ...its possible the moro pirates snatched one spanish galleon and 2 manila galleons in a 300 year period

 

[enrada]

666
Just wondering if the 1980's one was the one in Indonesia where two Ausies from Adelaide were jailed. It was a William Hatcher job that pissed off the Indonesian Gov. The only recent ones that I know of was the Frank Goddio project, the William Mathers project in Saipan and the one we did in Guam.You are correct, Chinese wanted the silver for currency. Spain got pissed at all the silver going to the Philippines instead of being sent to Spain so they put a limit on it but that was a joke as some wrecks were salvaged with at least double the legal amount. Remember most of these galleons sank within 15 degrees of the equator so were in warm clear water and thus salvaged at the time. These galleons were huge. 1690 Pilar sunk in Guam was 1,000 tons.

 

[enrada]

A very interesting read is the following book;

The Manila Galleons by William Lyte Schurtz, first published in 1939(?)
A person should be able to get a copy through inter-library loan. The other book called Manila Galleons(?) is not near as good.

 

[ARC]

When those galleons left Mexico, coming your way, they would have had their $ to make the purchases. Silk, wax, porcelains, fabric, etc..... When they were on the return voyage, skirting past Alta CA on their way back to Mexico, they would only have had the goods. Not the silver.

There was a case, back in the 1950s I believe, where one of the wreck sites was actually found on a remote stretch of Baja CA. Evidenced by massive amounts of crockery/porcelain that would wash up on the beach after any beach-erosion storms. So they studied it long and hard. They also found lots of globs of wax (woohoo). Any fabrics and silks would have been long gone. But never any silver and gold. Go figure: They took that to make their purchases. So on their return voyage, would have had little to no silver/gold.

As for the potential over your way: Good luck !

Heh Tom... The "woohoo" to the wax.

Did you know that wax was a high value item in those days.

There were even laws in middle ages on who could and could not posses it... wax and candle makers were up there with those who handled gold and silver.

Wax was seriously prized.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Posts deleted, it is real simple, post by our rules. If anyone doesn't know our rules there is a link in my signature line.


"If you disagree with another member's post, make your comments in a polite and respectful manner.

Don't attack, provoke, insult, or deliberately offend anyone.

All members are equal, regardless of age, gender, ethnicity, education, or experience. Never take a superior tone with, or "talk down" to, anyone."

 

[XLV]

enrada ...no it was northern tip of luzon american hunter ... my memory very bad if i remember right once the mayor found out...he stopped the project i think there was one spanish ship (100 ft deep ) and in that same area 2 hell ships ...the local name might of been hells point or gate i forget... for years coins were washing up on the shore ...it was big news at that time showed the jerk in jail ..if i remember in northern philippines theres about 4 old wreck sites and one 1898 site and few blood gold sites ...am more interested in cebu route stories like san pablo and the abukuma wreck

 

[xaos]

Heh Tom... The "woohoo" to the wax. Did you know that wax was a high value item in those days.

That was true for many of the items coming from the Orient. Beeswax was the foundation of perfumes in Europe, candles, as a sealant, and a preservative. What about ambergris?
Spice was far the most valuable, selling for more than 100 times the purchase price, especially peppercorn, then Ginger, and Cinnamon. Who wants a load of wax or peppercorn these days? I seem to remember a run on silver in Europe, as the Chinese valued silver, not gold, for trading.

Posters are correct on the direction of the voyage, if you came back from the Orient, and had anything but spice on board, it was a big problem for you with your investors.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Heh Tom... The "woohoo" to the wax.

Did you know that wax was a high value item in those days....

I meant "woohoo" in that ... for someone now to treasure hunt and find those globs of wax .... is probably not a high value item ... today . Not even historically (except for perhaps a curiosity piece in a museum for the provenance/story)

.... Spice was far the most valuable, selling for more than 100 times the purchase price, especially peppercorn, then Ginger, and Cinnamon. Who wants a load of wax or peppercorn these days? I seem to remember a run on silver in Europe, as the Chinese valued silver, not gold, for trading.

Posters are correct on the direction of the voyage, if you came back from the Orient, and had anything but spice on board, it was a big problem for you with your investors.

Gentlemen, this is a fascinating conversation. Just last night, I went to our quarterly Carmel mission docent meeting (I'm on a team that leads history tours there). And had the chance to talk to a local Maritime museum history curator. He's big on nautical history, the Manila galleon trade, etc..... Was instrumental in doing an entire museum display on the subject @ 10 or 15 yrs. ago., for the Monterey History and Art Association.

And all that you are saying is true: That wax (although perhaps boring to find now) was a high value item. Silk, fabric, porcelains, and yes ... I see spices now, which he concurred. Another was mercury (quicksilver). For at least some portions of time during that trade route (because it had not yet been discovered yet in CA, and it was needed for refining of silver and gold ).

And he also confirmed it was silver heading that way for the purchases. Not gold. And another intriguing factoid he pointed out, was to point to some historical citations recording how the ports and traders here, at that time (the missions, etc...) did NOT want "silver and/or gold" from any arriving supply ships. They wanted TRADE GOODS. Because, go figure: All during the early mission times here in Alta CA, there was no manufacturing. No refined metals. No manufactured goods (paper, glass, wax, fabric, refined metals, etc...). So it was THOSE things that were in demand. No need for silver and gold here (aside from trinkets for trade, and small pocket commerce). Because, it's not like there were stores here that you went and shopped at. Doh!

 

[xaos]

While many of the worlds currencies were backed with gold, Chinese currency was backed with silver. China would only accept silver for payment from the Europeans, as China was not interested in any European goods.
During the Ming Dynasty, silver was worth about twice as much in China as worldwide, making the trade routes even more lucrative for the Spice and other trade goods..

Portugal had its own silver mines, which gave them the jump in the trade routes until Spain opened up the new world resources.

It is estimated that of all of the silver mined in Mexico and South America between 1500 and 1800, 30% of the entire amount ended up in China.

Reference: (in part) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_silver_trade_from_the_16th_to_18th_centuries#cite_note-29

 

[renantagum30]

"If you disagree with another member's post, make your comments in a polite and respectful manner.

Don't attack, provoke, insult, or deliberately offend anyone.

All members are equal, regardless of age, gender, ethnicity, education, or experience. Never take a superior tone with, or "talk down" to, anyone."

NOw i see this rule. i dont know why tom in ca keeps on violating this rule, and my comment towards tom in ca gets deleted in a matter of minutes, and Tom In CA's behavior keeps on irritating members for sometime? I think every comments he makes here looks like he has a beef towards anybody. Unlike us who keeps on field testing in treasure hunting, Tom In CA might not be a treasure hunter in practice and he seems to criticize everybody like he is an expert in treasure hunting.

and I guess this post will be deleted in minutes. This is an honest opinion that others feel the same also. If i cannot make this simple comment here as it will be deleted in a matter of minutes, I would like to be banned from this forum.