sunken Manila galleons 1575-1806

[XLV]

with 41 sites and 6 unknown sites i never hear of any news of any finds these ships all had large amounts of silver some of these sites are in less then 100 feet of water ...most japanese sites are in deep water and odds are they have nothing aboard but they get all the news and divers ....10 to 50 tons of silver aboard each Manila galleon for over 400 trips in 250 years ....any comments or updates of news is welcomed

 

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[South Sea mariner]

Hola amigo 666

I have just left the Philippines with a new ship in ballast for Chile to be used in the Patagoniam region. I had just sailed through Manila-Acapulco passage and the San Bernardino strait between Sorsogon and Northern Samar. I can understand how perilous it must of been as the majority of Spanish ships lost was traveling along this passage. Ironic I probably sailed over some shipwrecks from colonial Spanish era.

How I understand it there is a least 3 shipwrecks on the Northern Samar side and 1 on the Sorsogon side. The 3 on northern side was carry silver from Acapulco.

The Nsra Sra de la Encarnacion 1649 was grounded on Sorsogon side. We could assume that most of cargo was salvaged at time of the grounding?

San Francisco Javier 1655 was lost near Borongan, Samar in a Storm, commander's error in judgment, pilot's error, grounding.

San Nicolas de Tolentino 1620 was also lost near Borongan, Samar the San Nicolas de Tolentino was Late-despatch, strong contrary wind (vendavalas), grounding

Santa Ana 1620 Borongan, Samar Late-despatch also, strong contrary wind (vendavalas) resulted grounding. Its hard to know if they had been salvaged at time of their grounding or took their cargo of silver to the bottom.

San Cristobal 1798 San Bernardino Str. Unknown

Nsra Sra de la Guia 1740 San Bernardino Str. Unknown.

Nsra Sra del Pilar deZaragoza 1750 San Bernardino Str. Ill-fitted/maintained, commanderand pilot's error, grounding.

The Capitana 1756 San Bernardino Str. Unknown

San Juanillo 1578 San Bernardino Unknown?

Sacra Familia 1729 San Bernardino Pilot's error, grounding

However there are other ships we have no idea of their where they become wrecked other than missing without trace?

But the Pacific ocean is a big ocean my friend.

Mal

 

[XLV]

thanks for the info i want to wish u a safe voyage to chile south sea

 

[Tom_in_CA]

When those galleons left Mexico, coming your way, they would have had their $ to make the purchases. Silk, wax, porcelains, fabric, etc..... When they were on the return voyage, skirting past Alta CA on their way back to Mexico, they would only have had the goods. Not the silver.

There was a case, back in the 1950s I believe, where one of the wreck sites was actually found on a remote stretch of Baja CA. Evidenced by massive amounts of crockery/porcelain that would wash up on the beach after any beach-erosion storms. So they studied it long and hard. They also found lots of globs of wax (woohoo). Any fabrics and silks would have been long gone. But never any silver and gold. Go figure: They took that to make their purchases. So on their return voyage, would have had little to no silver/gold.

As for the potential over your way: Good luck !

 

[South Sea mariner]

Hello 666

Thank you.

We are very pleased with our new ship. so far. I was quite surprised how developed the ship building industry is in Philippines. They are 4th largest producer of ships in world. The ship we obtained was built for a shipping company that went into receivership and deal fell through. We got a very good deal although we have factor in a few modifications to suit the role we have for her.





A lot of the ships furniture and fitting still wrapped in plastic. Her size maneuverability and shallow draft was ideally suited to the channels and shallow ports she will be servicing in Patagonia and Tierra del Fuego.

Mal

 

[Shortfinger]

Hello 666

Thank you.

We are very pleased with our new ship. so far. I was quite surprised how developed the ship building industry is in Philippines. They are 4th largest producer of ships in world. The ship we obtained was built for a shipping company that went into receivership and deal fell through. We got a very good deal although we have factor in a few modifications to suit the role we have for her.

View attachment 1670049

View attachment 1670050

A lot of the ships furniture and fitting still wrapped in plastic. He size maneuverability and shallow draft was ideally suited to the channels and shallow ports she will be servicing in Patagonia and Tierra del Fuego.

Mal

Hi, Mal. Glad to see that your company is expanding and adding a new ship. Good luck in your new venture Patagonia and Tierra del Fuego.

JB

 

[South Sea mariner]

Hi, Mal. Glad to see that your company is expanding and adding a new ship. Good luck in your new venture Patagonia and Tierra del Fuego.

JB

Hola JB

Thank you. It was a big decision to take over this coastal shipping run. We still have a transition period and commissioning. Each ship has its own, how do you say in English Quirks? I celebrate 20 years as master mariner in 2019. 37 years working in maritime industry. Every job on the ship up. My role will change this year I will be desk bound in Valparaiso in charge of captains working on our ships. My wife is going to love that I home every night. I am taking role over from my older brother as he is semi retiring. But we work in stages as slow a process of assuming and adjusting to that the role.

One of perennial problems of been part of a family business is succession as my sons and nephews are becoming captains themselves we progress through different roles. My brother and I are becoming the elder statesman of the company.

Mal

 

[Shortfinger]

Hola JB

Thank you. It was big decision to take over this coastal shipping run. We still have a transition period and commissioning. Each ship has its own, how do you say in English Quirks? I celebrate 20 years as master mariner in 2019. 37 years working in maritime industry. Every job on the ship up. My role will change this year I will be desk bound in Valparaiso in charge of captains working on our ships. My wife is going to love that I home every night. I am taking role over from my older brother as he is semi retiring. But we work in stages as slow a process of assuming and adjusting to that the role.

One of perennial problems of been part of a family business is succession as my sons and nephews are becoming captains themselves we progress through different roles. My brother and I are becoming the elder statesman of the company.

Mal

I suspect that you will miss the sea. It is good to make the transition slowly, maybe you will be able to sit behind the desk a little easier by working in stages, and occasionally going out to sea. What ever came of the trip through the Panama Canal to Germany that you were talking about earlier?

JB

 

[South Sea mariner]

When those galleons left Mexico, coming your way, they would have had their $ to make the purchases. Silk, wax, porcelains, fabric, etc..... When they were on the return voyage, skirting past Alta CA on their way back to Mexico, they would only have had the goods. Not the silver.

There was a case, back in the 1950s I believe, where one of the wreck sites was actually found on a remote stretch of Baja CA. Evidenced by massive amounts of crockery/porcelain that would wash up on the beach after any beach-erosion storms. So they studied it long and hard. They also found lots of globs of wax (woohoo). Any fabrics and silks would have been long gone. But never any silver and gold. Go figure: They took that to make their purchases. So on their return voyage, would have had little to no silver/gold.

As for the potential over your way: Good luck !

Tom I cannot say for the shipwreck case you mentioned in California why there was no silver coins on the vessel?

However all ships would have some form of operating currency on them. But perhaps not to levels to justify the expense of a recovery.

Certainly the ships traveling west bound was full of silver bound via Manila to orient where the silver paid for exotic silks and luxury items made in china back to Spain via Acapulco.

The key ships to look for are west bound ships and not east bound ships. East bound ships some times shipped porcelain, spices silks and exclusive trad goods etc which today has become collectors items. However after a flood of recoveries of non perishable artifacts in South East Asia the value has decreased due to over supply of the market.

Most of professional salvors working South East Asia have retired for several reasons.Indonesia has all but stopped shipwreck hunting in their territory as well as other south east Asian nations asserting cultural patrimony. For the Philippines while there are some promising shipwrecks. But cultural institutions do not have the funding or conservation expertise at present to salvage them.

The fellow below Pascal has recovered probably more treasure than anyone on treasure net combined.






The problems for a professional savor is cost over returns from such projects that are becoming prohibitive and the legal burden fighting over ownership in the courts. That is one of reasons why activity has been rather quiet. Plus UNESCO is making inroads to South East Asian, Cashed up countries are funding their own underwater archaeological heritage exploration. Usually now funded by large foundations.

Mal

 

[South Sea mariner]

I suspect that you will miss the sea. It is good to make the transition slowly, maybe you will be able to sit behind the desk a little easier by working in stages, and occasionally going out to sea. What ever came of the trip through the Panama Canal to Germany that you were talking about earlier?

JB

Hola JB

Yes I will miss the sea. As its been a big part of my life. I had good voyage through Panama and across the Atlantic to Hamburg. I left the ship and flew out to the Philippines just after Christmas.

I will still do the odd voyage when we are short on a captain. Although we have rotating roster of Captains. Ships lose a hell of lot of money being idle. So we have tight schedule.

Mal

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Mal :

.... for the shipwreck case you mentioned in California why there was no silver coins on the vessel?....

"Why" ? It was/is exactly as I said, and we agreed: That those galleons went west (to the Philippines) prepared to buy. And intended to return with trade goods. As we agreed. So why is it a mystery that they were not laden with silver and gold? Ala Mel fisher fame/lore, on their return voyages ? And that the goods they carried (silks, fabrics, porcelain, wax, etc...) are of little value to shipwreck salvors today ? (unless you're into wax globs and crockery fragments).

.... However all ships would have some form of operating currency on them....

Yup. They (the captain , in his personal bunk) would have had a lock-box for payroll purposes. But ... seriously now...... is that singular cigar-sized box worth anyone's time ?? Contrast to the Mel Fisher lore/fame type-finds/loads ? Where we're talking entire ship ballast loads FILLED with gold/silver ? Of course not.

.... which today has become collectors items. However after a flood of recoveries of non perishable artifacts in South East Asia the value has decreased due to over supply of the market....

spices, porcelains, silk, wax, etc.... Is not worth ship-wreck salvor efforts. Maybe for archie concerns (cool broken up crockery shards, and cool ship spikes for history-sakes) but not for investor sakes.

 

[South Sea mariner]

Hola Tom

Have you ever excavated or even participated in recovery of a shipwreck?

Mal

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Hola Tom

Have you ever excavated or even participated in recovery of a shipwreck?

Mal

If I say "no", then what does that result in ? That ... therefore .... anything a non wreck-diver or non-scuba archie says on the subject, must therefore be erroneous ?

If I have said something erroneous (which perhaps ... yes I did), then discuss it on those merits. Otherwise, it's know as argument from authority: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority Ie.: rather than discuss the pro/con merits of an idea, you go after the person's credentials/authority.

So for example : If you tell me that 1 + 1 = 2, I could say: "Do you have a math degree from a reputable university?" You say "No". So can I say to you that therefore you can not chime in on what 1 + 1 equals ? Of course not.

I am a docent at one of the CA missions, so I studied up on the Manilla galleon traffic (in-so-far as their return leg past Alta CA). That , and 40 yrs. of beach hunting/ md'ing is my only credentials.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

said respectfully, in direct answer, to a direct question, given to me

 

[enrada]

I personally did 4 years of research into Manila Galleons resulting in a project in Guam. As per South Sea mariners list above you will note a number went aground therefore almost certainly resulting in salvage(warm tropical water) in contemporary times. Almost all gold religious ornaments found in the Caribbean were manufactured in Manila by Chinese goldsmiths. In about 1625-1630 the Spanish killed about 25,000 of them in Manila fearing that they might try to capture the Philippines. Out of the 55 locations that I have I would estimate that maybe 3 or 4 might be viable. We would have had to get Cardinal Sin's blessing and then Ferdinand would give us a permit but when we went to leave Imelda would be at the airport and say thank you for recovering it for us. Also because of the corruption one would almost have to be self contained as opposed to land based. I think Frank Goddio recovered one off Fortuna Island close to the entrance of Manila Bay but not sure if it was financially viable. Also sailings were maybe only the Capitana and Almiranta of even maybe only one ship so if it sank in open water no location is known as opposed to Carribbean where multiple ships sailed and if hit by a hurricane some survived and were able to pinpoint locations.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... We would have had to get Cardinal Sin's blessing and then Ferdinand would give us a permit but when we went to leave Imelda would be at the airport and say thank you for recovering it for us. Also because of the corruption one would almost have to be ....

So ... I just want to make sure I understand you correctly : There would most likely be scores of riches to recover, if it weren't for govt. red tape and various corruption. Right ?

Which may very-well-be. But ... just want to make sure I understand this correctly.

 

[enrada]

The best bet would be a west to east ship before 1630. Would have a lot of gold religious artifacts. Due to the fact of a number of large recoveries of Ming porcelain and Spanish pieces of eight from other ships might not be a viable situation.
Government and local payoffs would be a major concern for me. Even in Guam I was asked for the brown paper bag by then Governor Ricky Bordallio(sp?) and told to contact his able bodied assistant Ben Pangelinin(sp?). Eventually Ricky got convicted for taking payoffs and committed suicide in the Square before having to report to California and jail. Other contractors got convicted as well. For us, no payoffs and no convictions, than you very much!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... I was asked for the brown paper bag by...

I will take that as a "yes", to post #16 ?

 

[South Sea mariner]

If I say "no", then what does that result in ? That ... therefore .... anything a non wreck-diver or non-scuba archie says on the subject, must therefore be erroneous ?

If I have said something erroneous (which perhaps ... yes I did), then discuss it on those merits. Otherwise, it's know as argument from authority: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority Ie.: rather than discuss the pro/con merits of an idea, you go after the person's credentials/authority.

So for example : If you tell me that 1 + 1 = 2, I could say: "Do you have a math degree from a reputable university?" You say "No". So can I say to you that therefore you can not chime in on what 1 + 1 equals ? Of course not.

I am a docent at one of the CA missions, so I studied up on the Manilla galleon traffic (in-so-far as their return leg past Alta CA). That , and 40 yrs. of beach hunting/ md'ing is my only credentials.

Touchy today are we?

Mal

 

[South Sea mariner]

Hola Tom

To everyone on site. Many thanks to those who has made this site interesting to read. However I think it time for me to call it quits and go.

My qualifications is master mariner only. However over many years I have had contact with people how was very successful at what they did as professional savors. However my capacity I was only as charter skipper only. Nothing more and nothing less. As I said to you before I am not or never have been a treasure hunter or most likely never will be. However I do find them fascinating. I thought I could contribute in the little capacity I know. However it appears it is going to be an ongoing issue with you.

Your reaction and long rambling monologue says "plenty" about yourself.

While it appears you have stalking me across the forums. You drove me off Yamashita forum. I post else where your up my ass again. Are you in love with me or do have some beef with me?

What really annoys me is the way you write. You might be nice guy in person but you come across as pumped up egotistical condescending know it all wanting talk down to people.

Either you do it intentionally for the love of an needless argument or you use forums for a power trip you do not have in real life.

Its really grating and painful....Pain I do no have time for this crap because seriously I have life.

I suggest you get one too.

Adios

Mal