Stone artifact found....ideas?

[jmginmd]

I am posting this for a friend at work. This item was found outside a barn dating to the mid 1800's. The location of the property is roughly the PA and MD state line. Obviously, we think it is an Indian artifact but we do not know exactly what it is. Any thoughts or ideas would be great. Thanks in advance.

 

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[hntsjnk]

This is a Matate, used for grinding corn or whatever. The lines around the top make it look fairly modern, made for sale to tourists, same with the lower shape, much too nice for utilitarian indian use. Likely bought in mexico in the '50's or '60's. my two wheats worth.

 

[TreasureTales]

Possibly a pharmacist-type mortar. They are still being made and can be found on eBay.

See this link: http://images.auctionworks.com/hi/72/72196/upc-70117-cc.jpg Hmmm, link won't work. Type it into your browser and you'll see something very, very similar.


BTW, metates are flat. This is definitely a mortar of some (modern) type. But I wouldn't be disappointed if I found it. I'd keep looking for the pestle (the long, thin piece used to actually do the grinding) and hopefully find it to make a complete set.

 

[hntsjnk]

sorry I dismissed it as being modern. Could well be old, just the groove around the top looked fresh in the photo. please forgive newbie on this site, but I've seen modern ones like that a lot. If the stone it is made from is really porous then it would be modern because they are easily made from volcanic tuff or similar. If from hard rock then this is the real thing. If it really came from that old setting you describe then I agree with the other poster,(sorry,forgot name darnit), it is an apothecary mortar, look for the pestle nearby. sorry all around, don't mean to come off as a know-it-all-young-whipper-snapper!

 

[TreasureTales]

Hntsjnk, welcome to the forum!! I think you are right, it looks modernish to me, too.

Keep posting your ideas, that's what the forum is for!!

 

[wolfpaw518]

Would the ridge around the top indicate placement of a lid? Did your friend continue to search the area following this find for other pieces?

neil

 

[jmginmd]

I do not believe he has looked for any other pieces. If he has, I do not believe he found any because he has not told me. I really don't know if it is old or not. I would think it would be possible and if it was modern, I would think the base of it would be finished better. The bottom where it would contact the ground is really rough and un finished. Don't know but I will give him all the info. Thanks again.

 

[dugupfinds]

Aztec scrafice stone.

 

[Monty]

An amusing anecdote as usual! Gee I feel like Cliff Claven on Cheers sometimes. I was doing some reading on Indian artifacts and the article said that many times Indians would have their teeth worn down to the gums by pieces of grit from the grinding bowl and pestal. They chewed it with their food and it ground their teeth down. Wonder if they had any famous Indian dentists?

 

[TreasureTales]

An amusing anecdote as usual! Gee I feel like Cliff Claven on Cheers sometimes. I was doing some reading on Indian artifacts and the article said that many times Indians would have their teeth worn down to the gums by pieces of grit from the grinding bowl and pestal. They chewed it with their food and it ground their teeth down. Wonder if they had any famous Indian dentists?

Monty, I've had the opportunity to see some skulls from ancient burial grounds (saw them thanks to an archaeology class I took about 30 years ago) and indeed the teeth of the Native Americans who used such stone tools were indeed worn down to their gum lines. And we complain when we get a little grit with our clams!!!!!

I may very well be wrong (certainly not the first time!! hahaha), but this just doesn't look like an old Indian mortar to me. The shape is wrong and the sides look extremely uniform (as in machine made). It would be interesting to get an expert's opinion on this item, although the photos may not be adequate for such an expert's assessment.

 

[dugupfinds]

Same in medieval England.

 

[willrich]

check this out--->http://www.oldjulianavocadoco.com/avocados/mocajete_mixing_bowls.html


think that's what it is
do I win the prize? lol

 

[willrich]

here's annother one just incase--http://cgi.ebay.com/OLD-MEXICAN-MOCAJETE-MORTAR-PESTLE_W0QQitemZ330019863182QQcmdZViewItem>

 

[Oroblanco]

Not to ruff any feathers here but not ALL metates are flat - I personally own one that is round with a round grinding bowl. (found in NE PA) This interesting artifact could be a metate.

I would suggest another possibility, that it is "modern" but as in 1700s-1800s; in colonial times there were many small scale producers of gunpowder. It could be a mortar for making frontier black powder.

May I ask the dimensions of the stone? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[jmginmd]

I would like to thank everyone for the responses....keep 'em coming. I will get the dimensions as soon as I can. Thanks again everyone.

 

[The Gemologist]

First i think it's modern, looks like it pharmaceutical, but the stains under the edge look like from a cigarette,


Hummmm

I'd guess a cigarette ash tray

 

[TreasureTales]

Not to ruff any feathers here but not ALL metates are flat - I personally own one that is round with a round grinding bowl. (found in NE PA) This interesting artifact could be a metate.
Oroblanco

Then your artifact wouldn't be a metate, without ruffling any feathers, of course!!! LOL. A metate, by definition, is flat or very slightly raised at each end. Without a photo I cannot tell you what you have, but your description sounds like a mortar.

 

[Oroblanco]

LOL. A metate, by definition, is flat or very slightly raised at each end.

Ah, whoo? All metates are flat "by definition"?
Metate \Me*ta"te\, n. [Sp., fr. Mex. metlatl.]
A flat or somewhat hollowed stone upon which grain or other
food is ground, by means of a smaller stone or pestle.
[Southwestern U. S. & Sp. Amer.]
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

me·ta·te (mĭ-tä'tē, mĕ-tä'tĕ)
n.
A stone block with a shallow concave surface, used with a mano for grinding corn or other grains.
[American Spanish, from Nahuatl metlatl.]

metate
SYNONYM: lower grindstone, concave quern, stone saddle quern, grinding platform
CATEGORY: lithics
DEFINITION: A ground-stone slab with a concave upper surface used as a lower millstone against which another stone is rubbed to grind vegetable material such as cereal grains, seeds, nuts, etc. A metate is one of a two-part milling apparatus -- the other part being with a mano (handheld upper grindstone). Metates are found in agricultural and preagricultural contexts over much of the world and are often made of volcanic rock in Mesoamerica. It is a Spanish term for the smoothed, usually immobile, stone with a concave upper surface and is mostly associated with the grinding of maize. It is a hallmark artifact in the definition of prehistoric subsistence patterns.
(from http://www.reference-wordsmith.com/cgi-bin/lookup.cgi?exact=1&terms=metate

Never round like these I suppose?

Another definition:
Metates
What is a metate?

A metate is a grinding stone used by Mesoamerican peoples to grind their corn. The following is one example of a metate although they come in a variety of shapes and sizes. They are essential to a corn-based lifestyle such as the Maya experienced.

(from http://www.davidson.edu/personal/arbugosh/metate.htm

No ruffed feathers, but your 'definition' is not quite in keeping with archaeology.
Oroblanco

 

[TreasureTales]

Oroblanco, a metate is flat. A mortar has a definite bowl shape. A metate may have a slight depression, as I tried to explain in one of my earlier posts by describing them as sometimes having raised ends, but they are not the same shape as a mortar. If you want to split hairs, have at it. Metates (the largest/first photo in your post is a classic metate) may have been circular, but not round (circular as in hula hoop, not round as in baseball). Your posted definitions (so nicely shown in red, were you seeing red when you posted them?) actually prove my point better than yours. The very first definition you posted says metates were flat, but you apparently elected to ignore that little word when you emphasized the slight depression portion of the definition. And a slight depression is just that.

The originator of this thread wanted to know what his friend found. His friend found a mortar, whether or not it was made by Indians remains to be seen. But my educated guess is that it's not old enough to be hand-made by Indians. To avoid hijacking this thread, I am finished with my part of the "debate."

 

[Oroblanco]

Treasure Tales, what reason for backing out? Because I disagree with your definition? And a 'bowl' is also a rather loose term, but have it your way - all 'metates' are flat, archaeologists are all wrong with any that appears to be round, with rounded edges of the grinding area in calling them 'metates'. Many are flat. I never said that NONE were flat. Yeesh.

With this item we are all guessing; I would not guess it is older than 1700s and who knows could be an ashtray less than a year old.
Oroblanco