Splitting hairs

[fishnfacts]

With the strict laws or ordinances in my area I was wondering if splitting hairs is ethical.
Example and case and point:
I called the director of parks (I always check first) to ask about MD"ing the parks. I was told that quote "You may metal detect to look for a lost item only". Now aren't all items we detect for lost! No elaboration was made by him or me on what is a lost item. I plan to only detect volleyball/swing areas or wooded areas of the parks and will simply state if asked that I am looking for a lost item. I will not be digging up the grass areas or any flowerbeds.
So am I spitting hairs and looking for trouble or am I exercising the permission that I was given?
I haven't hit any of these parks as of yet because I wanted to get input/advice from those who have been doing this for a while and fell like I am just doing what is needed to be done to access hundreds of acres of our public land.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

D-dancer, the "disturbing flora" and "digging" verbage inherently apply to the end result, in a "reasonable person's mind". Ie.: if you leave no trace, then you have not disturbED anything, now have you? Sure the word "dig" is a bit more problemantic in this semantics, but I would also interpret that that to implicitly refers to the end result: holes. Ie.: dig vs dug. Sure not every last person in the world will agree with those semantics, as you said. And yes, you give lip service, and move on.

But another solution seems to be at play here, in your 2 stories: In each case, notice the requisite occurance that had to happen? That a personell or ranger or whomever had to see you, and decide he didn't like it. Therefore, another solution to the issue then, would be to "avoid such personell such as might be bothered". You know, like don't swat a hornet's nest. Go at lower traffic times so as to limit the potential to run into such lookie-lous, from the git-go. Not saying it's 100% gauranteed (since you can never 100% know when bored rangers are out & about), but .... at least you can lower the incidents of such things happening, by going at better times. Like at turfed parks for instance, it's gotten to where I do most of that type hunting at night nowadays. So peaceful. So serene

 

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[cudamark]

Tom. sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. There are parks in my area where you would get more attention detecting at night than if you did it during the day. People walking their dog will call the cops because of "suspicious behavior" they observed in the park. That can happen any time of day but to them, they must think, "who in their right mind is doing something legal in the park at night?" I find early morning hours to be the best.....just after dawn.

 

[DDancer]

Tom in CA :
I recognize your argument well enough. I cited that pair of examples more as a procedure of how to split hairs with an official in regards to the way the two laws are wrote.
*as a side note one example is from an incident in Australia and the other here in the USA*
You are correct in that such interpretations are just that, interpretations made by an individual of reasonable mind. The fact that these were officials with the ability to exercise their interpretation of the law in our confrontations lead me to exercise my right to discuss the interpretation and come to a peaceful outcome.
The point is controlling the outcome of "splitting hairs" with challenges to ones right to exercise their hobby.

Its not really lip service. In both instances I will adhere to the verdict of the official because there are more circumstances involved then what I wrote about. I don't feel the need to report on those circumstances because it does not help my original reason for entering the discussion.

As to your second solution its really not a solution at all in light of the topic of splitting hairs. And in regards to my examples I was detecting by the suggestions you have laid out and others have also sited. For me its par for the course~ I like to be left alone.
Simply altering the time one goes about their business does not obviate the law, rules or regulations that one may be confronted with.
I don't like swatting the hornets nest either however hornets don't just stay at home and can be anywhere at any time. Simply put have your arguments in line, keep it peaceful and consider other courses of action should one have to split hairs.

 

[MissIron.Maiden]

If it is not posted on a sign at the park entrance.Why would you want to think you can not do it.People like that ought to stay at home and quit ruining thangs for everyone else. IF IT IS NOT POSTED IT IS ALLOWED!!!!

So because it doesn't say I can't perform am autopsy it's aloud , great! I been looking for a new office with a view. Oh and I 'll tell my friends that naked volleyball will be ok too, because it's not listed. Did you need to be so abrasive about it? Not just you, but others as well. I been doing this 2 years now and I still won't do it at my kids ' school ( which is on very old property dating back to 1600's) because of just being polite, and not wanting to mar the grounds keeping if even slightly. Sure it makes it harder if everyone asks permission at parks n schools and such .... But it's only because of good manners that we feel obligated to ask. Personally I just avoid public areas altogether to avoid either being treated like a criminal by a park official or getting a " no" if I ask.

 

[DDancer]

MissIron,
Unfortunately there are laws against performing autopsies, on humans anyway, just because the morgue does not post a sign *gallows humor okay*
And naked volley ball is permitted were posted Just don't expect a pleasant view most of the time. HAHH!

No one should feel like a "criminal" when approached by officials. If your genuinely doing something wrong sure; but really the onus of the outcome of such encounters will be dictated by your attitude and the officials response to it. I have long since gotten over the idea that one needs to go "commando" while exercising ones hobby. Why? Because I am not doing anything wrong. Blatantly or otherwise.

Considering the expanse of ages and experience(s) in dealing with interpretation of laws that govern the land pretty much everyone splits hairs once in a while.
I think I can say that none of us wants to feel like a "criminal" and pretty much everyone has some moral compass. Newer members to this particular hobby can gain a bit
from such discussions in my thoughts. It gives me a twinge of continence to detect in some instances. When that happens I split my own hairs, self justification, and decide what I will do about it. I can always walk away.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

So because it doesn't say I can't perform am autopsy it's aloud , great! I been looking for a new office with a view. Oh and I 'll tell my friends that naked volleyball will be ok too, because it's not listed. ...

Miss iron, You're right: It's entirely possible that not every single law or rule can be written on the wooden signs at parks. Eg.: nudity, murder, etc... But as d-dancer says, those things ARE down at city or county hall somewhere.

Therefore, if someone's worried that there may be an over-arching municipal rule, which doesn't appear on the wooden sign, they're more than welcome to go down to city hall and leaf through the municipal codes books. Some cities have their muni charter, laws, codes etc... on their website, for example. Or if not, it'll be at city hall, like behind the counter in binder form, etc....

I think maybe what Billn-1956 might have been alluding to, is that, most persons don't go to that measure. Because of a few reasons: a) it's rare for ANY city our county parks system to have a rule "no metal detectors", to start with. And those that did, might simply have it on the wooden sign . Or b) on the off-chance (and this is very remote) that a rule did exist at city hall, yet WASN'T on the sign, you would simply get warned.

Because un-like murder or public nudity, metal detecting is not a black & white issue. In other words, murder is illegal everywhere. Public nudity is illegal everywhere (I think ?). And the "I didn't know any better" line wouldn't work. However, detecting is not so. There's TONS of places you see people detecting. Therefore it's a matter of a different color. Not something you would expect to need an express allowance to do (like ... nudity, as in "this beach is a clothing optional beach"), but rather, in the absence of a prohibition, then presto, it's not prohibited. [and yes, that "prohibition" might be on the books, yet not on the sign, but still, you can simply look that up for yourself if you want to]

 

[MissIron.Maiden]

Miss iron, Because un-like murder or public nudity, metal detecting is not a black & white issue. In other words, murder is illegal everywhere. Public nudity is illegal everywhere (I think ?).

I just want to state that an autopsy is not murder.. It is a medical examination of a deceased person, lol.

 

[Trent67]

I truly believe, like others here have stated, that by asking you are opening a can of worms. I live in south Florida and have only been doing this for a month. I have hit many city and county parks. I have had a ranger approach me more than once at different county parks and they were all totally cool. They were genuinely interested if i was finding anything. On my part I just say "no, I find mostly junk but I get to get some fresh air and help you guys keep the park clean!" I think its all how you deal with people. Sure you will run into the occasional douche bag disgruntled government worker but when that happens just move on. What I like to do is when i meet a cool park employee I will take a selfie of them and me with my phone so if I ever meet a different employee at that park that is less than accommodating I can bust out my phone and show them the pic of me and my ranger buddy and say something like "hey, I know Park Ranger Bob and he said it is totally cool to be out here, so be on your way my friend, there is nothing to see here. Hey, take this quarter I just found as I gesture of my good will. Peace be with you Earthling!" They usually leave me alone after that.

 

[Fletch88]

So because it doesn't say I can't perform am autopsy it's aloud , great! I been looking for a new office with a view. Oh and I 'll tell my friends that naked volleyball will be ok too, because it's not listed. Did you need to be so abrasive about it? Not just you, but others as well. I been doing this 2 years now and I still won't do it at my kids ' school ( which is on very old property dating back to 1600's) because of just being polite, and not wanting to mar the grounds keeping if even slightly. Sure it makes it harder if everyone asks permission at parks n schools and such .... But it's only because of good manners that we feel obligated to ask. Personally I just avoid public areas altogether to avoid either being treated like a criminal by a park official or getting a " no" if I ask.

I would try their school that dates back to the 1600's! Just carry a small digger and go early in the AM! I found a gold broach about 2 inches deep at a local elementary school!

 

[Bejamble]

School grounds are completely different. Schools have their own set of guidelines and rules. Just like parks do. It may not specifically say no metal detecting, but it may say you cannot damage the grass and foliage in parks. If you are digging or sticking anything in the ground, they will hit you with that if they don't want you there. Same goes for school grounds, you can't detect there during school hours or sometimes not even during the school year. Lots of these rules take some investigating and talking to the right people to find out. Government agencies will have their guidelines and if it's not in their, it's fair game. It may not explicitly state no metal detecting but there are other laws and guidelines that pertain to everyone, not just detectorists. This is where the 90% of the hunt come before you even enter the grounds. There are so many federal, state, local, and organizational laws that exist. Many of the laws are written vaguely and encompass more than they were originally intended. It just depends on the person that questions you that day and the mood they are in. Like others have said, choose a low traffic time, if someone with any authority tells you leave, just leave without incident. Laws are gray and people have bad days. Asking is not always a bad thing, but the questions should be asked carefully. Don't ask if I can go dig holes in your grounds, present it in a more gentle way. Ask them if they would like to come with (they will get bored after a few pull tabs).


Cory

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... It may not specifically say no metal detecting, but it may say you cannot damage the grass and foliage in parks....

Ah yes, the "aleration" and "defacement" type clauses. And logically, if you leave no holes or marks, then presto, you have not alterED or defacED anything, now have you ? But you're right: that doesn't stop someone from coming up and laying the accusation anyhow. Detecting has "connotations" afterall. But no, that's not solved by going and asking ahead of time "can I?". In fact, that often time only makes it worse, because the thing that THAT tends to do, is merely put it on some desk-bound bureaucrat's radar. Ie.: perhaps they'd not have cared or noticed, UNTIL you came in asking for their princely sanction. Therefore you summed it up best when you say the solution is:

.... choose a low traffic time, if someone with any authority tells you leave, just leave ....

In other words, as much as we ALL want every last person in the world to love and condone us, and roll out red carpets for us, yet there comes a point where we need to admit we're in an odd hobby, that draws curious lookie-lous, and has connotations. Thus sometimes the best tactic, is to simply not put yourself on their radar, to begin with, rather than thinking you need to run around and get any grey "catch-all" wording distanced from yourself before you start.