Splitting hairs

[fishnfacts]

With the strict laws or ordinances in my area I was wondering if splitting hairs is ethical.
Example and case and point:
I called the director of parks (I always check first) to ask about MD"ing the parks. I was told that quote "You may metal detect to look for a lost item only". Now aren't all items we detect for lost! No elaboration was made by him or me on what is a lost item. I plan to only detect volleyball/swing areas or wooded areas of the parks and will simply state if asked that I am looking for a lost item. I will not be digging up the grass areas or any flowerbeds.
So am I spitting hairs and looking for trouble or am I exercising the permission that I was given?
I haven't hit any of these parks as of yet because I wanted to get input/advice from those who have been doing this for a while and fell like I am just doing what is needed to be done to access hundreds of acres of our public land.

 

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[Sandman]

Do you check first if you may toss a ball or bird watch in the parks? What makes you think metal detecting is some how wrong and you must ask permission first? When you ask for permission you open the door for an instant NO because it is an easy answer.

 

[billn1956]

If it is not posted on a sign at the park entrance.Why would you want to think you can not do it.People like that ought to stay at home and quit ruining thangs for everyone else. IF IT IS NOT POSTED IT IS ALLOWED!!!!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

fishn'facts, sandman and billn1956 have good points so far. I would add this: In the course of your "checking first", what were you "checking" for? Was it for permission ? Eg.: "can I metal detect?", or was it to find out if any laws prohibit metal detecting. Eg.: "are there any rules/laws that say/mention metal detectors?" You see the difference? The first can be met with an arbitrary subjective "no", when in fact, perhaps detectors are no where mentioned. Or because the person you're asking morphs something else to apply to the "pressing question". While the latter puts the ball in their court to CITE any such rule, if it existed. But even the latter way of phrasing can, sadly, still subject you to someone giving you something silly, and deciding that it applies to give a net effect of "no". When, sadly, it's possible that whomever you're asking might never have given the matter a moment's thought, nor cared less.

But let's cut to the chase: Suffice it to say you took your question to some director of parks. Ok, that's fine. And now you're wondering if you can take liberties with the semantics of the answer he gave you. Ie.: to interpret it in a way that allows you. However, if you felt it was up to him, what he thinks applies, his princely say-so, etc... then let me ask you: Why not just take this followup question as well, to him? eg.:

"Hi. Does the "lost item" I'd be looking for has to be something I lost? Or does it need to be something known that I've been commissioned to find [like someone ran a 'lost' ad on CL for their ring]. Or can it be simply any and all 'lost' items going back 100 yrs ?" Seems to me if you think the fellows say-so dictates a yes or no (as shown by your taking the initial question to him), then why not this followup question as well ?

I would not bother, and would simply interpret in the way that benefits my ability to hunt. And to be honest with you, would not have asked anyone to start with. I would look up rules for myself. And if I found nothing that said "no metal detecting", then presto, there's my answer.

 

[fishnfacts]

Being new to this, I DO NOT want to give the hobby a black eye. I understand the adage "It's easier to ask forgiveness than to ask permission" but I don't want to be the one who ends up being the reason they post an area.
This is why I deferred this to those who have been doing this for years hoping for some solid advice on how to proceed. Not to be scrutinized and scolded for asking the question.

 

[Ism]

I remember you losing a gold ring, couple silver pendants and some pocket change, now get out there and find it.
Don't forget to keep anything else you find in your quest for those lost items.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

Being new to this, I DO NOT want to give the hobby a black eye. I understand the adage "It's easier to ask forgiveness than to ask permission" but I don't want to be the one who ends up being the reason they post an area.
This is why I deferred this to those who have been doing this for years hoping for some solid advice on how to proceed. Not to be scrutinized and scolded for asking the question.

Nor do any of us want to give this hobby a "black eye". A few misconceptions here:

1. if there were no rule saying "no metal detectors", then ... what is there to be "forgiven" for ? "Forgiven" assumes someone has done something wrong (requiring forgiveness). No one here advocated breaking laws. We advocated looking them up for oneself. If you/we see nothing saying "no metal detectors", then, there's your answer, and nothing to be "forgiven" for.

2. If by "black eye" you mean areas now posted "no metal detecting", then don't think that asking leads to less such things happening. Ironically, it can often be the opposite. Where people go asking "can I metal detect", which can lead to rules invented (or policies anyhow) which never existed before. Yes, there's actually been examples of places where rules actually went into effect. And when you trace it back to its genesis, it was the "pressing question" floated before desk-bound bureaucrats. So ironically, it's the opposite of what you're saying sometimes.

Sorry if we/they/I appeared "scolding" or "scrutinizing". But to answer the question, is all that was hopefully intended.

 

[dholland02]

Once again another person looking for a no. If there's no posted sign on a public park just go hunt it.

 

[Fletch88]

Just hunt and leave no trace you were ever there. Don't carry shovel only probes or sod cutter. Calling it to the attention of every bureaucrat will give more of a black eye to the hobby. Good luck and HH!

 

[fishnfacts]

Thank you for a solid answer Tom
"Once again another person looking for a no." Was not looking for a no. I have permission granted in another city to dig all park property to my hearts content. So I really enjoy myself and don't have to look over my shoulder.
I sure am glad I have thick skin being new to the site, I have learned so much from the PRO'S on the site and so much from the wanna be's.
Thanks again all for the replies and I do believe my question has now been answered.

 

[Hunters Haven-NC]

fishnfacts,
I for one am feeling your pain. A simple answer to your question would have been sufficient without all the bonus scolding. It is nice to know what you can and can't do ahead of time before someone calls the police on you so some investigating was in order. You just cut to the chase and went directly to the person who could give you the most direct answer. Given what you were told I would detect for lost items. As others have said, if there are no signs posted otherwise you probably would have been fine without asking but when a cop shows up you wouldn't have had the knowledge you now have from the director to state your case. So I say that although I probably wouldn't have called myself either I certainly don't blame you for doing so. Go enjoy your hunts and find some goodies!

 

[Normsel]

I would spit the hairs. I do it all the time. I will call a place and ask them if i can look for a lost ring. I never tell them who it belonged to because i don't know. I always promise to leave the place like i found it.

I read where my old home town required a permit to detect so when i was there last fall i went to the police station to inquire and they said i had to get a permit at city hall M-F 8:00 - 5:00. I said it's saturday what do i do, he said go out and detect no one will bother you. He said the ordinance was put in place to keep out of towners away.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

fishn-facts, glad your question was answered. A few comments on that:

1) if someone (like you in your example of your neighboring city) gets a "yes", then ... at first glance, it might seem like "great! now I can detect. It was therefore a good thing I asked". Such was your conclusion (an understandable conclusion). But you can look at it another way too: If there were no rule saying "no metal detectors", then you would have had the same access. And I guess if they'd answered "no", you might have thought "it's a good thing I asked, otherwise I could have been arrested". So you see how either answer .... at first glance .... seems to reinforce the notion that asking was necessary. I've never understood this though, because think about it: Did you ever think that some authority would answer like this: "Gee that's a silly question. Why are you asking me ? You don't need our permission, if it's not prohibited". Nope. Never will an authority answer like that. They will either bestow on you their yes or no or some variation. But not "you don't need to ask". Therefore, when someone cites a "yes" (or a "no") that they got in the past, as reasons to have asked, doesn't really tell you that "therefore, permission was required".

2) And be careful to assume that the yes you got allows you to "dig till your heart's content w/o having to look over your shoulder". There's been no shortage of stories of persons getting their yes, only to still be booted. And their permission promptly revoked. Because no matter how you slice it: detecting has connotations. So sometimes (always), a little discretion and avoiding such busy-bodies is in order.

 

[bottlecap]

Think of it like fishing since I see you holding a bass in your picture. You would probably fish at a park unless there was a sign at the entrance forbidding it. If it is not allowed I'm sure someone will let you know eventually.

 

[Bejamble]

Good analogy bottle cap. If it's not explicitly stated in law or ordnance the it's not "illegal". Just because something is not illegal doesn't mean that everyone knows the laws to make that decision. If joe blow walks up and says you can't do it, that doesn't mean he knows the laws. If it's a police chief then maybe that is different. If it's not written in law, then do it. If someone questions you state exactly that, there are no restrictions to doing it and until then, do it. Most parks will have specific guidelines stated explicitly the use of detectors, when, where, what time of day, time of year. If it's not there, then it allowed. Just make sure you know your local laws and treat the grounds with the proper etiquette and you will should have no issues anyone other than the busybodies.


Cory

 

[Tom Slick]

I moved from Mansfield about 5 years ago. I hunted all the parks with no issues. I always covered my holes and never asked for permission from the parks department. The first thing they usually say is no you can't even if they don't really know the answer.

 

[fishnfacts]

Tom, No wonder I can't find anything older than 1979 in the Mansfield parks! lol
I have permission to hunt all of Mansfield park properties from the park director themselves. I have had a Mansfield Police Officer watch me and ask afterwards if I found anything good. "Nope, just pocket change and bobby pins. You left a lot of pull tabs and beer cans behind though. LOL But don't worry I think I found them all for you.

Thanks for the insight all and good luck on your next hunt.

Ron

 

[Jeremy S]

Carry a picture of a ring and some (fake?) contact info in your digging pouch. If anyone gives you trouble say that you are looking for a lost ring, maybe even ask if they have seen it

If it is not listed in the park rules online then I go for it. I also go hunt at off-peak hours to avoid attracting attention. Nobody ever bothers me.

 

[bottlecap]

One other thing I wanted to mention is it seems if you dig deep enough into a city or counties ordinances you can find a reason everything is illegal. The way things are worded often lead to an open interpretation and I have a hunch the cities do this on purpose so they can enforce rules in the off chance something bad was to happen, or to make it so they're not liable if an accident was to occur. Chances are if you have even scratched the surface on researching rules and regs you probably know them better than 90% of the employees of the municipality, or county or whatever. Hope you find all sorts of treasure....quit looking over your shoulder! You're not a criminal.

 

[DDancer]

If you want to split hairs by all means do so. However bear in mind that you'll need to have a pretty good understanding and calm demeanor when explaining that split.
When confronted with aggression just walk away. When confronted with calm explain the why's and hows to the official. Chances are you argument will be well received however you may still have to leave if they are insistent.

Two Examples from my own experience :

Park I was detecting in had rules that prohibited the disturbance of all "Flora and Fauna" ie plants and animals. I was not aware of the rule applying to me because detecting was not raised in the parks rules. A nice ranger for the park, armed with the rules, stopped me and explained that I could not pursue my activities there because it disturbed the Flora.... ie grass... I split hairs with the ranger but it was useless so I left.

Park I was detecting in does not have any rules prohibiting detection. Ranger stopped by and observed me for a bit before approaching me and informing me that there was a city wide ordinance prohibiting digging of any sort for the recovery of any material. We split hairs and he was appreciative of the hobby and having seen my recovery techniques pointed out area's I should not be caught in but otherwise indicated I would not be bothered elsewhere if I kept my activities as I was... low and clean.
I left there and still made a few dollars elsewhere in this city.

Those are good confrontations. Hairs were split and one win one loss. I've had only 3 times been confronted with aggressive individuals. All were residents or locals who simply wanted to be idiots. One time there was a police officer involved. All were resolved by just walking away.

Make a judgment call is what I have to say if your going to split hairs. However recognize whether its best to pursue the argument or just walk away to detect another day.