Spanish shipwrecks off of Oregon coast

[bpedersen]

Does anyone have any information about the either of the alleged Spanish shipwrecks off of the Oregon coast. One is nicknamed the Beeswax wreck. The other one, I cannot find much information on either. Anything would be helpful. Thanks.

 

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[mariner]

Just Googling Nehalem Beeswax will give you lots of info on the Beeswax ship. It is generally thought to be the Manila Galleon San Francis Xavier from 1705, but the carbon dating that has been done suggests an earlier date to me. There are plans in hand to locate and identify the wreck in the near future.

There have been earlier threads on this forum about the Nehalem wreck.

As for a second Spanish wreck, Wayne Jensen always thought the San Agustin wrecked at Nehalem in 1595, but he was wrong, as the SA for sure wrecked on Point Reyes, California, and I think the idea died with Wayne a couple of years ago.

I knew another guy who claimed to have found a Spanish wreck on the Oregon coast, but he could never reach agreement with the State about recovering her, and shortly after I told him to stop wasting time with the State and to talk to Spain, he died, taking the secret to his grave.

What do you know about another Spanish ship? It might jog something in my mind.

Mariner

 

[Jeffro]

I have several references, it'll take a bit to round it all up.... but forget about Neahkanie. Well, I dunno, maybe you'll be the lucky one, but this one has been searched to death.

There are at least four Spanish galleons that went down off the coast here. Not including the ones you hear about in the treasure tales.

 

[mariner]

Jeffro,

So what is the basis of your statement that at least four Spanish Galleons sankoff the Oregon coast? I presume you have some kind of basis.

Mariner

 

[Jeffro]

I'm looking for the book right now.... BBL.

OK, I found one. I know there are more, but they were on my old hard drive which I still haven't recovered yet. Actually this may be two or it may be one and the same.

This is from Pacific Graveyard, by James A. Gibbs 1964 Binfords and Mort publishers.

There is the story of Konapee, the iron worker who was cast ashore on the Clatsop plains, the story of the treasure ship (Neakhanie), and the story of the beeswax ship, which may be the same.

In his "Narrative of a Voyage to the Northwest Coast of America", Gabriele Franchere describes meeting, at the Cascades in 1811, an old man of eighty years or so, whose name was Soto, who said that his father was one of four Spaniards wrecked on Clatsop beach many years before.

And in "Columbia River" William D. Lyman recounts several of the most widely accepted versions of the prehistoric legends of Spanish ships off the oregon coast.

Even more credence is given by Merriwether Lewis and William Clark in 1805 when they described Cullaby, an Indian of the Clatsop plains: "freckled with long dusky red hair, about 25 years of age, and must certainly be half white at least"

A Spanish ship went aground on Clatsop beach about 1725. All these references may be from the same ship, but its unlikely.


Like I said, I had four by my reckoning.... but I'll have to dig into my old hard drive to find references to the others.

 

[bpedersen]

This is great, thanks alot guys. How long have you guys been researching these wrecks?

 

[Jeffro]

I just gather all sorts of info and leads about Oregon in general. I have no desire to dive wrecks at this point. Lynn Blumenstein got me hooked on researching sunken ships for a bit, before he passed away. Heckuva nice fellah.... if you see any of his books out there, scoop them up too!

Anyways, theres enough leads there to track down, should keep ya going for a bit, HH!

 

[modrian]

I too have looked into many of thoese wreck- including the beeswax wreck, and have come to many of the same conclusions you have heard here. I agree with Mariner in the dating- the University of Oregon ran carbon dating on a block and tackle that was found in the area and believed to have came from the wreck and determinmd the date to be somewhere around 1620. I too have heard about a myriad of efforts to locate this, but usually to no avail. The sandy coast and heavy wave action would make recovery tough- if it's not on the beach, it's proably in pretty shallow water and would most likely require a coffer-dam type system.

I remeber heaing or reading at some point about artifacts washing up around Astoria, including a gold goblet, but can't remember where I heard of them. To my memory, I have not seen any evidence of this though. My library is in boxes right now for a move, so I can't check up on it, but most of what's been posted pretty much sums up what I've seen on this subject.

But if it helps- here's a great pic of the beeswax with writing on it, as well as a rock found on the mountain. Hope it helps!

-Modrian

 

[modrian]

....and here's some more shots from the Oregon Historic Photograph Collection- many of these pieces shown no longer exist, but display some very interesting markings- in the pic's #3 and #9, they both appear to display the "67" marking, but look to be different pieces. The piece I sent in the earlier picture most likely is the one in #9. Does this imply that they may indicate the weights of the original pieces, instead of dates as some suggest?

Another thing to note- in pic #1 and pic #10, they again appear to be the same type marking, but different pieces- a cross in a circle. Any thoughts on this one?

http://photos.salemhistory.org/cdm4...=CISOSEARCHALL&CISOROOT=/max&CISOBOX1=beeswax

Also- how about ideas on this artifact from the Nehalem river-

http://photos.salemhistory.org/cdm4...SOSEARCHALL&CISOROOT=/max&CISOBOX1=recoveredh

Love to hear your thoughts!

This photo library is a great resource by the way- check the wreck of The Glenesslin.

 

[bpedersen]

Thanks for all the info. I am going through several books right now hoping to find something new so I can start physically looking sometime in the near future.

What part of Seattle do you live in Modrain?

 

[mariner]

That item found just off Nehalem River is a halberd, used by both the English and the Spanish in the 16th century. I have the newspaper article somewhere. I think the date was around 1970. The diver gave it to a local restaurant owner, but when I tried to track the restaurant down, I couldn't locate it. That is a better photograph than the one in the newspaper, and I wonder if the item was ever donated to the Oregon Hysterical Society.

I am sure the 67 on the beeswax block is not part of a date reading 167 something. That particular piece is in the Pioneer Museum at Tillamook,and I have looked at it several times. The numbers and the signs are probably an indication of who owned the particular block, I think.

Parts of a teak wreck at Nehalem have been uncovered every so often. I think the last time was about 70 years ago, so some people have a pretty good idea where it is, and think that it is now lying under about 30 foot of sand. Whether the teak wreck is the beeswax wreck cannot be known for certain. There might be more than one wreck there, of course. No cannons have ever been found in the area, despite all the attention that it has received. This might be because the Manila galleon that the beeswax almost certainly came off was pre 1590, before they were armed, or it might be that the main body of the wreck, including the guns, still lies offshore. I think that the group that is planning to find and identify the wreck will probably manage to do so in the next year or two. I hope so.

One problem with carbon dating stuff from the late 15th or early 16th centuries is that there was a period of about 50 years when the pattern of atmospheric carbon was reversed. A BP date of 330 can represent either 1576 or 1626, for example (plus or minus the appropriate tolerance of course).

The wreck(s) and the marked wrecks do make this a fascinating story.

Mariner

 

[Jeffro]

Lynn had cannon balls in his shop he SWEARS came off the coast here. No cannon though. Interesting fella. One had only to spend an afternoon with him, and you'd be hooked for life. He is sorely missed. Rest in peace.

 

[modrian]

Great info Mariner- I too remember reading about a group taking a stab at locating the wreck. This guy has some info on people who are researchnng it and looking to attempt to locate it. Scroll to the very bottom of the article.

http://www.captainrick.com/Beeswaxwreck.htm

bpcenderson- I'm in the Norwegian stronghold of beautiful Ballard

-Modrian

 

[mariner]

Eb Giesecke. on whose research this search will mostly be based is a first class researcher, and nobody knows more about the Nehalem wreck than he. It is true that the 1700 tsunami might have had a significant impact of the wreck, but that would also depend on several other factors. Eb lives in Olympia, Washington State, by the way.

Several members of this team, including Ed von der Porten, were heavily involved in identifying the wreck of the San Felipe, a Manila Galleon that ran aground on Baja California in 1576, and bringing it into the public domain. I think that experience will be very useful as they look for the Nehalem wreck.

Mariner

 

[wildmandan]

i have just moved cross country from Oregon where I was born and raised and spent over 30 yrs exploring the Oregon Coast. I have reasons to think that the legend(s) regarding Neakanie and Neakanie mountain may be a diversion as I have found suspicious markings further to the North at Falcon Cove just to the North of Oswald West State Park (smuggler's cove).

great forum everyone I am hving a great time reading and it surprised me to see others interested in the Oregon Coast which has consumed the majority of my life..lol oh well at least now I can hunt in warmer weather and maybe even get lucky enough to hunt with the Seahunter someday.

 

[ivan salis]

a few tid bits --from potters --the treasure divers guide --revised edition---I have gleaned the best parts for you--page 463 the NEHALEM WRECK--about 200 yards from the mouth of the nelalem river mouth in the sand large chunk type objects were found--that when checked out turned out to be beeswax--in size from 10 to 200 lbs--some had "J.H.S."on the side short for "Jesus Hominum Salvador"--meaning is was prooperty of the roman catholic church--on one of the chucks in the pioneer Museum in Tillimook has the date 1679 on it----- how the chunks got there was explained in 1900 by a astoria resident "find" of ships wood in the sand -- recent storms have throw more wood up ---it prove to be teakwood---the manila galleons were made from teakwood and shipped beeswax to mexico from the phillipines for the church to make "tapers" from -- tapers ==== holy candles most likely a galloen was blown to the north and wrecked somewhere off the coast---note a drift pattern check of the currents of the area could be very useful to see if they may have drifted in from a good ways away or weither the wreck was nearby--Ivan

 

[Skimmer]

Hi
Now THIS a cool thread!..MORE of this please!!!

 

[ivan salis]

also there is another nearby wreck listed in potters --the treasure divers guide--revised edition---it is called the CLATSOP BEACK WRECK--- when early exploers came they found the local indains had "chinese coins" as decorationsand that some members of the tribe had "fair" hair---(were half --breeds) when the indains were "questioned" they told of a wreck that had happened years before and that 5 survivors who had lived several years with the tribe---who then left and went up river--some chinese coins from 1614 thru 1796? era ---if true the money and fair hair point to a post 1796? manila galloen loss --- althought research has not yet reveled one--there maybe one nearby off the coast---note the beeswax located nearby also.=----if the chinese coins are 1769 and not 1796? it matches beautifully with the beeswax wreck (1769)---the 1796 might be a slip up (69 - 96) of typing by the researcher it happens--- they may be one in the same wreck --the clatsop and the beeswax wreck----Ivan

 

[Jeffro]

Unfortunately most all info on any of these wrecks is third or fourth hand at best. Some early accounts are found in the Journals of Lewis and Clatk, as mentioned earlier- Gabriel Franchere's Narrative of a Voyage to the Northwest Coast of America, and Ross Cox's Adventures on the Columbia River- 1831.

Ruby Hults books Lost Mines and Treasures of the Pacific NW, and treasure hunting NW give some clues to these wrecks, and her bibliography in the back lists many sources for the info she has compiled. Thats where I got the references above.

There is probably another old shipwreck off the coast of Coos Bay, as gold coins wash up every so often around there.

 

[ivan salis]

potter was a good researcher and his info is very good by and large from what I've seen ---it kind of a older book but sound--I like---potters --the treasure divers guide --the revised edition very well--Ivan