spainish molds for gold bars

[the blindbowman]

the fact remains we were not takeing photos of this area at the time the photos were take . all of the photos are from back ground magnified sub area ....this site is got lots of reasons to check it out...and you must thing ,out side the box .

line of sight .
angular
altitude
depth
demintion
tecture
lighting
distence
range

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=cactusjumper T.T.,Thanks for your input on the picture I posted. It is not a lime kiln. Other sites in the area suggest it was used to process ore.
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Perhaps, but that could only be for roasting the sulfides for further processing. It was not a high temperature ovem.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I can't speak for Indians in general, but the Apache and other tribes of Arizona and New Mexico did not use kiln type ovens to cook their Mescal. Depending on the size of the plant, it was roasted/steamed (in a pit dug in the earth and prepared specifically for the job) from one to four days.
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I agree, there are several methods for roasting mescal from open pits to closed kiln types, which are still used in Mexico for processing Mescal into Tequila.

On one occasion I entered a small beautiful valley with a crystal clear stream intending to make camp there for a day of exploration. As I rounded a turn I encountered a boot leg Lechugulla /Tequila operaton of perhaps 25 men. No-one had been watching the trail since it was so isolated, so i took them by Surprise. There was some frantic scurrying around for a few minutes.

Once they established that I was alone they relaxed but never-the-less,all were now carrying rifles and semi autos. When I identified myself they relaxed, seems that word of my exploring, and of a particular incident involving me, my mule, and toilet papper had spread ahead of me. We had a quiet dinner together, then over coffee, they told me of conditions futher ahead.

The next morning as I was leaving they gave me a large piece of cooked Mescal and escorted me politely, but firmly, out of their little valley. Until the middle of the day I could see a couple of men following me with rifles.

Their method of cooking involved ovens, such as your picture suggested, as well as a steam pit. To allow it to ferment they had stretched cow hides over a rectangular frame with a pronounced dip in the center which they filled with perhaps 50 gallons of water and shredded, cooked Mescal. Their finished product was absolutely crystal clear with a potent punch.

It was based upon this, and other episodes, that I made the remark that it was possibly either a Mescal or Lime /sulphide oven.

Don Jose de La Mancha






[/quote]

 

[cactusjumper]

T.T.,

The Mexicans made Tequila, not the Apache. They made Tiswan......not the same. If we are discussing Mexicans, you are correct.

Kilns are used to achieve high temperatures, and work well for making Tequila.

"Perhaps, but that could only be for roasting the sulfides for further processing. It was not a high temperature ovem."

That would depend on the type of fuel being used, and the actual construction of the oven. I would guess that these ovens/kilns were not in the same condition as when they were being used by the original builders.

There are other methods that might be used to separate gold from the surrounding rock. Especially if the gold was like that described by the Dutchman. While you might want to heat the rock for this process, it would not need to be enough to melt the gold.

I don't know $*&T about rocks, so I could, of course, be wrong.

On the other hand, I am very familiar with the Apache and the details of their everyday life. You remain at the top of the "Rock" food chain.

Joe

 

[Dave45]

When I identified myself they relaxed, seems that word of my exploring, and of a particular incident involving me, my mule, and toilet papper had spread ahead of me.

OK tell the story

 

[the blindbowman]

OK . real de .....

you out right under stand the kiln and thoeries of how ore was reduced and refind for the molds.

this in mind .
take in fact the lemited wood and the fact the area is so off the beaten track .. could they have made the molds of stone at the location .

just for the sake of debate . if they did . why take the ore from the tunnle some 200 yards away and smelter it there is water needed in the smeltering ...or could it have been closer to the vault and it was more work to move the ingots than it was to move the raw ore ?

i have trails between site 1 and 5 ..site 1 being the wall and smelter area 5 being the tunnle area ...

i have a hard time beleiveing that anyone other than the spainish related to the smeltering , there maybe signs of Aztec and apache here , but as far as man made or gold smeltering , they look to be the people that could have work this site at any full scale .. yet it could not have been worked very long ...i no there is sand and some wood in this area yet is the fact there is water there why they were there . is it just a matter of drinking water and feeding mules ...

my piont being ,, say i am right and this is the smelter area its 25 yards from the vault area but 200 yards from the tunnle or cave /mine...

and i got to ask you what do think of the secound picture i know is not a good quality picture but this object is driveing me nuts . i have looked at it from 4 or 5 angles and diffrent sunlight yet i beleive it is man made i just dont know what it is ...

 

[cactusjumper]

Randy,

I have to admit you surprise me now and again. Not an unknown method, but probably not well known by young pups......such as yourself.

I think we would both be well advised to hold our tongues on matters that are, really, none of our business....no matter how well intentioned. I believe I will follow your lead. Good call!

If you are still interested in taking a look in the Bradshaw's, I will let you know when I can go in. It will probably be awhile, but it will happen.

Take care,

Joe

 

[MesaBuddy]

Randy , the Bradshaws huh ?........., I see you are opening up your mind
MB

 

[MesaBuddy]

***O T***
Yup got your message , sounds good , give me a call
***ON TOPIC***
Don't ya think ol Dutchie got his gold from the Bradshaws and lied about it , just some food for thought Randy
Those molds are modern , I certainly wouldn't consider them early Spanish

MB

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=Dave45 When I identified myself they relaxed, seems that word of my exploring, and of a particular incident involving me, my mule, and toilet papper had spread ahead of me.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
K tell the story
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Hi dave, in here or a separate thread ?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[gollum]

Incidentally speaking of charcoal and old smelting processes, always check it with your detector since it is similar to a sponge in absorbing the Precious Metal vapors.

I accidentally found this out when I had a strong metal reaction from old smelter charcoal. Close examination with a lens showed that the porous tubes in the charcoal were lined with Silver or gold. In fact this a major method of absorbing the metals from a soloution I.E. Carbon extraction"..

Don Jose de La Mancha

I didn't think of that until I saw your post.

It explains one thing very well. I know I have posted this pic before, but it is Gary Oliver while excavating one of the backfilled shafts of Tumacacori. The charcoal from the smelter can be seen in layers when it was mixed with surface soil to hide as backfill in the shaft. All this shaft was VERY hot, and drove his metal detectors crazy (even though they didn't find any gold in the earth).

Best,

Mike

 

[the blindbowman]

Incidentally speaking of charcoal and old smelting processes, always check it with your detector since it is similar to a sponge in absorbing the Precious Metal vapors.

I accidentally found this out when I had a strong metal reaction from old smelter charcoal. Close examination with a lens showed that the porous tubes in the charcoal were lined with Silver or gold. In fact this a major method of absorbing the metals from a soloution I.E. Carbon extraction"..

Don Jose de La Mancha

I didn't think of that until I saw your post.

It explains one thing very well. I know I have posted this pic before, but it is Gary Oliver while excavating one of the backfilled shafts of Tumacacori. The charcoal from the smelter can be seen in layers when it was mixed with surface soil to hide as backfill in the shaft. All this shaft was VERY hot, and drove his metal detectors crazy (even though they didn't find any gold in the earth).

Best,

Mike

did you have the soil tested . it could have been blacksands ....the reason i say that is often in flood water stages are seen in the layers as well ...my piont is look closer there are layers of just sand as well , is that site near water or water run off ...? good photo never the less ....

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HIO: BB Gollim peeps: This is why you never see a geologist without his favorite lens combination.

On the charcoal mentioned, when you examined it closely all of the tubular structures of the orig. plant were lined with silver, it looked like hollow tubes of nice shiny silver, it had not oxidized.

BB, I presume that he used his detector after removing the old charcoal. In site detection would not be too informative.

(1/2's Gullum ,?) Well if one does not try one cannot expect success, sigh.


Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. The old Spanish had a theory that if you covered a treasure with charcoal it would absorb any gases etc and so hide the site. Hint hint.

 

[MesaBuddy]

 

[the blindbowman]

i want to thank you for adding some under standing to the kiln and smeltering types and how they work .

in away the location of these smelters, if that is what they are . would aid in the prove of evidence more than disprove . the close distence to the vault area vs the tunnle and ore locations ...

plus the size of the smeltering system ....

the legend only stated in acountes that the spainish had built smelters it gave no real discription of the smelters or how many were built . i did read once they had built smelters in others areas ,yet no defind locations were stated and there was no sorce listed for the data ....

i think it would be foolish if we did not think there had been a few smelter sites out there ...

another piont could be made from this find at this site 1 ... if this is a smelter site . than with all logic other smelter sites they built may look very close to this one in location as well as how the system was designed ...plus it close location to water ....i would have to add if that is the case than it would be most likely that the molds if thats what they are . are at this site and were in fact made from stone , they would most likely use them at other sites . in logic this would reflect this site may have been there 10 or 15 years .but vanished in a very short time span...just the fact the molds would still be there may give us reason to beleive the site was abandoned or the people vanished from this site ...subporting a few of the acounts within reason , with the under standing that we are not sure of the locations true name . it could be one of the Tayopa mines , it could be the EL sombrero,or the MaPa mine, wish i did find some record of ...

no matter who else found the mines or sites in the years after . it dose appear that the sites were made in the early 1500's by spainish on what was indain ruins or at the holly place...will be able to prove it ,, we can only hope at this piont ...

at this piont we can only show a direct link between the peralta witch stone and heart stone and inserts and the trail stones ,the Gonzales - Ruth map and to the sites locations them selfs ...

but if we are to beleive that findings of this post are true than they also would subport that these sites at one piont were taken over by the spainish at a very early time in the recorded history of the area ...

if this is the case than it would reflected that many people tryed to clam these sites threw the years yet only for the sites to be lost in the end ...what was the reason for this , greed , power , confussion , faith ... we may never know ...but we can do this, build a puzzle of the peices we do have . it may not be complete . yet the pattern of the shapes and sizes of its data and the color of those who came before us reflect in the over all puzzle ...


history is a funny thing ...we try to date events yet in a case like this the dates can be as misleeding as the facts being out of order...

and it only takes one fact mis labled to throw all the research in to tail spin....and the treaure hunter ends up miles away or spending his hole life out there hunting for clues...


so untill we can say "here it is" . than the data is not complete ...

i would like to thank you again for adding some light in the path of the smeltering systems and how they work . if we could all work like this in the field at the sites . the spirits of these legends would soon find the great sleep ...

 

[gollum]

Hey BB,

That spot is high in the mountains, just West of Highway 19 between Tucson and Nogales. The black layers have nothing to do with any flood waters. They are layers of charcoal from a VERY large smelting operation. He has found half burnt sticks in those charcoal layers.

This is the site of the Virgen de Guadalupe Mine from the Mission of Tumacacori.

Here is a shaft, where the backfill has settled between 1-2 feet. You can see the nice gap between the top of the backfill and the roof of the shaft:

Jose,

No, I don't believe Gary had any of the charcoal tested nor did he try to extract anything from it. He has been concentrating on the tons of gold and silver that are supposedly cached in an open (but buried) shaft. Also for the copper box containing maps to the mission mines, supposedly buried in a separate shaft. He doesn't pay any attention to any of the many rock carvings in that valley. I think that if he stays at it a few more years, he will get into it.

Best,

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

For some reason, I was under the impression that Gary was no longer working the site. Do you know for sure that he is?

Joe

 

[the blindbowman]

gollum , i hate to say it but this is another legend with somewhat mirrorerd facts to the parts of the tayopa and LDM legends , a box in a shaft or tunnle or crypt ...jewiery vs maps or chruch records ...i find it interesting that you stated :

"this is the site of the Virgen de Guadalupe Mine from the Mission of Tumacacori."

i see a pattern in the confusion , note that kino was directly realed Tumacacori as well as a unknown jesuit related to the tayopa massacre site acount . my piont is all three legends fit togather yet not the way one would think they could ....

look at the similarities between these legends

Virgen de Guadalupe
Guadalupe de Tayopa
Guadalupe de Santa Ana

i think he has the name miss writtern

it should be Guadalupe de Virgen

i had to go check but (our lady of Guadalupe) is also called (the virgen of Guadalupe ) maybe this is why it is backwards ....

what proff dose he have that it is in fact the (virgen of Guadalupe mine )??

the reason i ask is this could very well be one of the 18 tayopa mines ....

the reason i say that is there was another name for the Lady of Guadalupe . (Lupita) the event took place in december 9th 1531 ---december 12th 1531,....... the event centerd around the 10th and the 11th , so the event lasted 4 days ....

this same code was used once before this and i do know what it means ....

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI BB: Cross off Tayopa from your area, honest.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[gollum]

Mike,

For some reason, I was under the impression that Gary was no longer working the site. Do you know for sure that he is?

Joe

Hey Joe,

Nope. Gary still gets down there when he can (he lives in Oregon). His biggest problem now is trying to get permits to use heavy equipment in the National Forest, and also getting access. He still holds the claim on that part of Javelin Canyon. The BLM told him he could bring some friends and use picks and shovels. No problem there, but they don't want him to bring in Big Backhoes or Bulldozers any more.

BB,

Mainly because the original site for the Tumacacori Mission House is about 100 yards away from the spot. Also because the Tumacacori Mission had SEVERAL mines associated with it. Two of the three known named Tum. Mines have been found in the last seventy years (Opatas and Pure Concepcion). There is what is known as the Molina Document and it's associated map (if you believe in it's authenticity), and it shows "The Virgen de Guadalupe) right there, and several other reasons.

Don't let the name similarities get you. In the New World, the Spanish named damn near everything after Jesus, Mary, Guadalupe, and all the major Saints. That's one of the most confusing things about reading Spanish accounts of things that happened in the New World. If a document says something happened in San Sebastian (St. Sebastian), there were only about five cities with that name.

Best,

Mike

 

[the blindbowman]

lol , i know what your saying ...

its not just the name similarities or the spelling missteaks ,
why because they are not spelling missteaks at all . i ask a few questions from the right people in the right places . the laguage is not spainish as we know it .. it is in fact a castilian a early tounge of spainish , so it is in fact spelled diffrently ....i have both the modern spelling and the castilian for the peralta stones ...not much diffrence but as i stated before one word can throw a hunter off by miles ....

or change the whole meanings of a clue ...

i cant prove it but i beleive the mine he is working on is the real Opata, i have seen it writen (guadalupe de opata) there is a good reason i am telling you this . look at the date the vission of mary took place in 1531 ... IMHO all the 18 mines where her name...
i can only beleive the mines had been worked in hideing and had not been named before than ..i think the mines were founded between 1509 and 1521 ....and dont get confused . each location can have a number of mines for that location ,, meaning there maybe a dozen or more mines in that area and the area is marked with one main mine .. in his case the Opata...

if i had enough details i could locate it for him in a very short time span ...

now some of you may have noted that i did not say the mines were founded in 1488 as the date is beleived to read over the crypt we beleive we have found . i did that for a good reason . the date 1488 is the brith date of the founder of the jesuits , IMHO it was simbolic more than a dated crypt ....the date makes sense this way ....

remember the code i was brakeing . the date on the priest stone read 1847 ( one infinity for seven ).....it is not a date ....