Spain and Mexico decided to work together in order to rescue the Galleon Juncal

[The_Colonel]

What the spanish did was inexcusable, insatiable greed and lust in the name of their religion.

The way I see it, at least some of the loot can be returned to the public domain, so that future generations can judge for themselves. I would rather it that way, than to end up in private hands, disappearing forever.

 

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[Mackaydon]

The Colonel,
Why wait for future generations to judge what was done today?
Why not split the spoils today between private hands and the government and be done with the issue?
Don.....

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

The Colonel,
Why wait for future generations to judge what was done today?
Why not split the spoils today between private hands and the government and be done with the issue?
Don.....

Gday Don
You have my greatest respect but ! You say stolen goods that you will gladly keep 50% and split the rest with the Government, Then all is forgiven ??
you Guys make out you are saints and don't have any moral problems selling it off.

 

[Mackaydon]

Ossy,
Hello, my friend.
Several years ago, in Ecuador, we discovered and salvaged the galleon 'Capitana' (1654). The treasure was divided 50/50 (after we were instrumental in changing the law vs. the previous law of the finder receiving 50% in 10 year government bonds based on only the intrinsic value of the goods). Granted, most of our finds were sold at auction and ended up in private hands ; and they continue to be actively traded on coin auctions now, nearly 15 years later. Would you like to take a guess on where the government's share of their finds is today; that are supposedly on display and in the 'public domain'? If you know, let me know since I have been unable to trace their whereabouts in any repository since shortly after the division.
Don.........

 

[LM]

And? It's their choice to do it that way. Just because a car has been sitting on the side of the road for a week doesn't give you the right to go and strip parts off it.

'salving' without permission is thievery. Plain and simple.

No, but the laws pretty much everywhere acknowledge that if a car is sitting on public property for 19 years, or 90 years, its assumed to be abandoned and the owner forfeits titular rights to it.

Treasure ships are unique in that they're loaded with highly valuable cargo so there's immense motivation to recover them. As far as 'permission', it becomes a territorial waters issue and everyone generally agrees that the free-for-all days are over, however its probably worth pointing out that the 'treasure' aboard those ships resulted from a looting and plundering of a region and peoples the likes of which has few peers in human history.

If Spain wants dominion over that treasure because they stole it first, perhaps Mexico and Peru might want to consider asserting themselves as even more senior claimants.

 

[LM]

The way I see it, at least some of the loot can be returned to the public domain, so that future generations can judge for themselves. I would rather it that way, than to end up in private hands, disappearing forever.

There can be a deeply irrational view of what 'public domain' actually achieves, as far as this stuff goes.
significant historical artifacts, yes. Most salvage law has matured to the point where states have priority rights to claim historical artifacts. The hang-up is that law then becomes a perverted pretext for asserting rights over everything- every coin, every bar of metal- not because its credibly historically relevant, but just good old fashioned human greed.

I think a very fair standard to apply is: if this artifact were given to the Field Museum in Chicago today, right now, would be it put on display or put in the basement? (for a bit of perspective, the stuff in the basement at the Field Museum would be the first-string collection anywhere else)

No?

OK, how about a state museum? Would the artifact be given floor/display space in a state museum, or would it wind up in the basement?
Chatter has it that if the Florida state treasure archive were ever audited, there would probably be subpoenas, investigations and prosecutions due to all the missing coins, but that's an aside...

No? State museum really doesn't need any more coins for flatware? How about a University collection? It the artifact somehow relevant to research, or in need to be preserved for posterity due to it providing unique insight into the past?

No?
Well, what now?
This is the point where idealogues squeal abstractions about "history" and "...making it available for everyone!!" but the thing is, with a lot of this stuff, the answer is, it just isn't as historically relevant as you think. While to the layperson it may appear impressive and god knows archaeologists justify their jobs by insisting that every discarded hairpin is akin to uncovering King Tuts tomb, another coin, another bar of silver, another rusting anchor or bottle or pewter fork isn't always archivally meaningful, but it can be of interest to private persons who collect stuff. Allowing that economic engine to exist is precisely what has driven the recovery of so much very credible history that DOES wind up in museums, for everyone. It's not academics, not government bureaus. Enterprising men.

As usual, academia is big on theories, big on 'ideas' and there is no problem for which they can't present an elaborate theory on a blackboard that solves everything but in practice, they're utterly worthless when it comes to actually pulling history from the muck.
Economically disincentiveize historic salvage, then we all lose since the clock is ticking on a lot this stuff and governments just aren't in the business of doing this work. Year by year, decade by decade, century by century, it's eroding away. What we have left may not be there 50 years from now and unfortunately, the theories of college professors won't do anything to raise it from the bottom.

 

[Vox veritas]

Dear friends,
to my knowledge, and have said that to my face, a familiar and ominous recovery company of underwater treasures of the USA, was or is behind the events over the past 16 years.
It is no coincidence that the problems of SEA HUNT INC. (JUNO and GALGA) began the same year that the company appeared in Spain (1998).
There are many more coincidences.
You believe in coincidence? I do not!
VV

 

[JT]

Chatter has it that if the Florida state treasure archive were ever audited, there would probably be subpoenas, investigations and prosecutions due to all the missing coins, but that's an aside...

No? State museum really doesn't need any more coins for flatware? How about a University collection? It the artifact somehow relevant to research, or in need to be preserved for posterity due to it providing unique insight into the past?
This is the point where idealogues squeal abstractions about "history" and "...making it available for everyone!!" but the thing is, with a lot of this stuff, the answer is, it just isn't as historic.

As for the Florida "treasure archive", someone on this board a couple of years ago apparently filed a FOIA request and received a CD accounting of what was supposedly being kept, but the data was in some scrambled computer language format that he couldn't decipher. Seems in my memory someone here was going to help him out with it, but I don't recall anyone posting results.

Museums don't have enough floor space to exhibit even a moderate percentage of what they have stockpiled, so most of what they have sits in storage gathering dust. Seems like every few months an article will hit the news detailing a "find" by a museum when they finally get around to opening a random box that's been sitting in the corner for a few decades.

As for "historical artifacts", museums only need so many arrowheads, bottles, or coins, the excess winds up thrown away, gathering dust, or in an archies personal collection. About 8 years ago during the droughts Santee Cooper reservoir was drawn down to it's lowest level since the 50's, and state Archies were apopleptic because people were walking around picking up pottery fragments from long ago Indian tribes in South Carolina, or broken ceramic fragments from the 1700's. They called those fragments "heritage", and said they needed to be left in place. I walked around and gathered a few bags full of that "heritage", and when my daughter's 4th grade class was learning about the various Indian tribes that frequented the area, I made sure each kid in her class got a bag full of various pieces...just so they could hold and see something once crafted by someone else hundreds of years ago. The kids loved it.

I spoke to someone associated with our state Archie program, and asked why they don't donate "material" like that to local schools, so that kids can be enriched. The response was that the same "historical heritage" they don't want you picking up winds up thrown away, dumped back into the hole, or otherwise just disappears into personal collections...they don't have the room or manpower to store and document everything found. It's a crying shame.

 

[ropesfish]

After the atrocities and various genocides committed by Spain in Mexico and Central and South America over centuries, how smart can it be for the Mexican government to partner with them? If this were to come to pass, I would hope the Mexican government will give nothing back to the Spaniards but what they truly deserve.

 

[Army of 1]

Beware of Greeks ( greedy Spaniards ) bearing gifts ..cheers Mick

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

After the atrocities and various genocides committed by Spain in Mexico and Central and South America over centuries, how smart can it be for the Mexican government to partner with them? If this were to come to pass, I would hope the Mexican government will give nothing back to the Spaniards but what they truly deserve.

Wow ropesfish ! Did you just wake up from a 500 year sleep ? The US Boarder Patrol still shoot and kill most Mexican coming over the boarder into California ! Didn't California belong to Mexico ? What History books do you Read ?? You must come from the holy sainthood of Hollywood .

 

[Vox veritas]

After the atrocities and various genocides committed by Spain in Mexico and Central and South America over centuries, how smart can it be for the Mexican government to partner with them? If this were to come to pass, I would hope the Mexican government will give nothing back to the Spaniards but what they truly deserve.

Do not forget that the Incas and Aztecs themselves were cruel conquerors that enslaved. Were other times. Almost!

 

[hobbit]

Spain working with Mexico sounds a bit like Moe working with Curley.

Hopefully they will go to Cuba for technical expertise and the circus will be complete.

A bunch of corrupt socialist idealogues working together is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Vox veritas]

Do not forget that the Incas and Aztecs themselves were cruel conquerors that enslaved. Were other times. Almost!

The Most Violent Era In America Was Before Europeans Arrived

 

[: Michael-Robert.]

The Most Violent Era In America Was Before Europeans Arrived

Interesting read.

 

[Bum Luck]

Wow ropesfish ! Did you just wake up from a 500 year sleep ? The US Boarder Patrol still shoot and kill most Mexican coming over the boarder into California !....................

Where did you get that information?

Please don't try to dishonor the Boarder Patrol.