Some sort of heraldic eagle seal

[MinelabSwinger]

This lead piece was found at a older foundation site. The coins found here ranged from 1735-1832 Also found here were dozens upon dozens of flat buttons, Dandy buttons, and pewter buttons. This site is within 2 miles of a well recorded revolutionary war battle. Please give me any ideas you may have on this.


The back of the seal has some hand carved numbers and letters. It reads on the top line 1423 and on the bottom YO.
As for size it is between the size of a US large cent and a half dollar.

 

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[johnnyi]

Spike, until we can find a recorded example or some expert on this particular seal shows up we can only guess, but there's a lot of weight to suggest official.

We do know that this symbol was in use in some states as early as 1778, and nationally as early as 1782.
Other than finding a somewhat similar American eagle design on several "un-official' Washington innauguration buttons we see, and often finding the American Eagle itself used very early on in patriotic decoration, I don't think we find the complete seal of the United States used as decoration on things that are not official.

 

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[Don in SJ]

I happen to have a contact that is an expert on lead seals, he really did not give an answer other than to say to contact the expert at ANS, and use him as a reference. I did so last night and got a response this morning from a leading authority on lead seals.

Thank you for your inquiry. This is indeed an interesting-looking specimen. I'm sure that (name witheld) is correct, that it is some kind of bale seal, or something very similar, but I have never seen or heard of a bale seal that used the Federal heraldic eagle design. Judging from its appearance and workmanship, I would have to suppose that this item would date from the late 18th or very early 19th century. It appears to resemble the eagle of the Great Seal of the United States (particularly in John Trenchard's 1786 version) rather than a coin. Although it uses Federal designs, I do not believe it would actually be an official seal. The workmanship looks a bit too crude for such a supposition, and you will note that the arrows are in the eagle's right talon, which is technically incorrect although it is a feature seen occasionally in Early American numismatics, as you are probably aware.

It seems possible to me that this seal is most likely to relate to New York City, in the late 1780s, when lead bale seals were still in common use there. The scratched symbols/numbers on the reverse look typical of what one might expect to see on contemporary bale seals.


Hope this helps on knowing what you found, I would venture a guess it is a item that a lead seal collector would be interested in, but no idea of value, you would have to check past auctions on lead seals to venture a estimate I guess. but it is without a doubt a super find to have in your own personal collection....

Don

 

[johnnyi]

Interesting observations Don. The eagle holding arrows in the opposite talon do exist however, on what may be considered "official" objects. Post Revolutionary buttons from 1792-98 include an example of an Army button showing the eagle holding the arrows in his right talon (GI25D). As well, the Army one piece button of 1800 (GI26B) also has the eagle holding the arrows in right talon. Both of these examples of United States Army buttons were produced post the adoption of the government seal of 1782. Incidently, these particular buttons are of much cruder manufacture than the seal we are looking at (which has obviously had its image contorted by pressing)

It may be that we're looking at official government in terms of central government rather than a specific military branch of government such as the U.S. Army. Although we don't have the answer yet, it may be too soon to dismiss the possibility that such a seal which conformed in some ways to the Army button, may be Army specific also, and used on bundles accounted for by the Army and traded by the Army?

 

[IronSpike]

I think the seal was official rather than private.