SOLVED! Ambrotype Photo Civil War Militia Member Georgia

[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

Any military guys here that can identify who these two are fighting for? I am going to be really embarrassed if it is the US.

Even with a loupe I can't make out the first letter on the hat of the first guy. It's either "D" "O" or "Q" (I think). The second letter appears to be a "U".

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

You haven't seen the last of me yet - meaning ... based on some additional research I've been doing, if the soldier in the second picture can positively be identified as a Texas Confederate, it "could possibly" quadtriple it's value! Anything Civil War, Texas, and Confederate related are considered rare and valuable.

SBB

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

There is little doubt the 2 military items are the grand prizes in the bunch.

Civil War items in general are often worth more than other American wars.
Confederate worth more than Union.
Texas worth more than Georgia.
Civilian photo items not much value unless we can prove a famous person.


Now that I think about it, you may want to block out a portion of the military officer photos or type your name over them.
The images themselves may have value and can be stolen. I had some images stolen myself.

 

[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

There is little doubt the 2 military items are the grand prizes in the bunch.

Civil War items in general are often worth more than other American wars.
Confederate worth more than Union.
Texas worth more than Georgia.
Civilian photo items not much value unless we can prove a famous person.


Now that I think about it, you may want to block out a portion of the military officer photos or type your name over them.
The images themselves may have value and can be stolen. I had some images stolen myself.

I resized them.

Fellow T-Net members, I really appreciate your continued efforts at researching these two photos. I honestly had no clue they were that special or valuable. I had just been cruising ebay looking at completed listings for photos in that particular style of case from that era and figured they were worth around $150-$200 a piece. I had no clue that rank, unit, home state, specific regalia, ect. had so much impact on their significance or value. - thanks again SBB.

I almost feel like these belong in a museum or something now. I've been google-ing "Texas Confederate Colonel" to try and figure out who the gentleman in the second pic actually is.

 

[Tuberale]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

Give us the name of the Evansville Indiana studio and if shes famous, we may be able to find her.

I have just gone back through my grandmother's photo album pics, and cannot find what I thought this was. Also, most of my families' photos were taken either in Michigan or Sedalia, Missouri. Can't find anything from Evansville, Indiana. I must conclude I'm wrong.

 

[kuger]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

Most of the photos you have posted were c. 1852-1866. I recognize one of the women, in the third photo of the second group, who also was in my grandmother's photo album. She may be a relative or an early singer or entertainer.

Much of my grandmother's photoalbum actual came from her mother, and were continued on as a keepsake/family heirloom.

I believe one of the golden-colored frames you show may actually be gold foil or heavy gold leaf. Gold is inert, and it was hoped having gold near a photo would prevent deterioration of the photo itself.

I believe another of your photos shows early color added, in the form of gold leaf, to the earrings (and something else?).

This would increase their value, just in case you are considering re-sale.

The second photo in the original grouping is of a confederate soldier. I don't recognize the first soldier's garb, though.

How can it be c 1852,when Tintypes werent invented 1856??

The OP mentioned the "gold",substance on the buckles,it is indeed gold which was painted on buckles,jewelry,and other items by the "photographer".

Cannon',great advise on the Tongue and wreath Style buckles

As mentioned I do note a "star",on the one gentleman

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

Here is a site on reproduction hat insignias. I dont know if it helps any. http://www.ss-sutler.com/insignia.html

CannonBallGuy is one that can help. Im hoping for more input from him.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

Although inconclusive, it appears that soldiers in the Texas Confederacy were quite proud about wearing a five point star on their hats. I did a quick search this morning and in a matter of minutes found the two images below, both of which were described as members of the Texas Confederacy. No doubt a true Civil War expert would be able to look at the pictures of the soldiers in question and tell us immediately what we need to know about them, but since I am not one of those so called experts, I suppose the best that I or any novice like me can do is present clues as we find them and hopefully arrive at some coherent conclusions from that.

The pictures below were described as follows ...

1. Private George W. Woodall, Co. G, 14th Texas Cavalry.

2. Lieutenant and Chaplain Bartley Pace Bynum of the Texas Confederacy.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

I also found the following which may help in the identification of the uniforms themselves. You may have to use a zoom feature to pick out the details, but it appears to be fairly accurate and had the accompanying text associated with it.

Plus, this link goes to a website that discusses a specific Texas uniform. (Or should I say, lack of one?) Notice in the second paragraph where it states, "Except for an occasional Texas star pin, members of the Third would not have worn brass ornaments, numbers, feathers, or other decoration on their hats."

Link: http://www.3rdtexascavalry.org/boots_uniforms.php

The image below presents a spectacular view of the various uniforms of the Confederate States Army. No less than 26 different styles of Confederate Uniforms are presented, all created by an eye-witness who made the sketch. The sketch appeared in the August 17, 1861 edition of Harper's Weekly. The image below is a photograph of the original 1861 leaf from Harper's Weekly.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

Final thought for the day ...

Is it just me, or do all of the five point stars shown thus far have a shorter point on the lower right? Including the one in hombre_de_plata_flaco's original picture?

SBB

 

[Tuberale]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

Most of the photos you have posted were c. 1852-1866. I recognize one of the women, in the third photo of the second group, who also was in my grandmother's photo album. She may be a relative or an early singer or entertainer.

Much of my grandmother's photoalbum actual came from her mother, and were continued on as a keepsake/family heirloom.

I believe one of the golden-colored frames you show may actually be gold foil or heavy gold leaf. Gold is inert, and it was hoped having gold near a photo would prevent deterioration of the photo itself.

I believe another of your photos shows early color added, in the form of gold leaf, to the earrings (and something else?).

This would increase their value, just in case you are considering re-sale.

The second photo in the original grouping is of a confederate soldier. I don't recognize the first soldier's garb, though.

How can it be c 1852,when Tintypes werent invented 1856??

The OP mentioned the "gold",substance on the buckles,it is indeed gold which was painted on buckles,jewelry,and other items by the "photographer".

Cannon',great advise on the Tongue and wreath Style buckles

As mentioned I do note a "star",on the one gentleman

I stated c. (circa, meaning "about") 1852 as a general date, not a specific date. Most of these photos are not tintypes. They appear to be daguerotypes taken after 1858, very popular among Civil War soldiers wanting to leave a good impression if the worst happened. (And it often did.)

Earlier chemical images might take 30 minutes of exposure to leave a faint impression. In general these images were not of people, but of scenes. Search history of photographs for more information.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

Just call me "The Mad Hatter." I will be greatly surprised if you don't find something on the following website that strikes your interest. The hat section is especially cool and will blow your mind. There is even a hat for Big Cy with a Florida palm tree on it. Plus a lot of other interesting stuff including uniforms, etc. Have fun with it. But be prepared to take your time as it is quite extensive.

UCV stands for "United Confederate Veterans."

SBB

Safe Link: http://www.volunteerrelics.com/index.html

 

[kuger]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

Most of the photos you have posted were c. 1852-1866. I recognize one of the women, in the third photo of the second group, who also was in my grandmother's photo album. She may be a relative or an early singer or entertainer.

Much of my grandmother's photoalbum actual came from her mother, and were continued on as a keepsake/family heirloom.

I believe one of the golden-colored frames you show may actually be gold foil or heavy gold leaf. Gold is inert, and it was hoped having gold near a photo would prevent deterioration of the photo itself.

I believe another of your photos shows early color added, in the form of gold leaf, to the earrings (and something else?).

This would increase their value, just in case you are considering re-sale.

The second photo in the original grouping is of a confederate soldier. I don't recognize the first soldier's garb, though.

How can it be c 1852,when Tintypes werent invented 1856??

The OP mentioned the "gold",substance on the buckles,it is indeed gold which was painted on buckles,jewelry,and other items by the "photographer".

Cannon',great advise on the Tongue and wreath Style buckles

As mentioned I do note a "star",on the one gentleman

I stated c. (circa, meaning "about") 1852 as a general date, not a specific date. Most of these photos are not tintypes. They appear to be daguerotypes taken after 1858, very popular among Civil War soldiers wanting to leave a good impression if the worst happened. (And it often did.)

Earlier chemical images might take 30 minutes of exposure to leave a faint impression. In general these images were not of people, but of scenes. Search history of photographs for more information.

I dont need to research it as I know Tintypes were not invented until 1856 and Daguerreotypes were VERY common,of portraits of people in the early 1850's...search Daguerreotypes

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

hombre_de_plata_flaco

This is primarily addressed to you because this is your thread. But hopefully it will be read by all and will summarize my personal evaluation to date.

Based on the approximately nine hours of time I have devoted to researching your two soldier photos, and especially the second one, I have arrived at the following possibilities ...

1. There are numerous clues and sufficent information in my opinion to suggest the
individual in the second photo may very well be that of a Confederate soldier from
Texas.

2. If this is true, it may very well be the most valuable photo of the lot.

3. Even if the present clues are deemed somewhat weak at present, I think it would
be highly worth your while to follow this lead and see where it goes.

4. You might even consider submitting images of it to one of those internet Civil War
experts for an evaluation. Some of them even purchase such items should you
ever decide to sell it.

So that's my 2-cents worth. I will continue to follow this discussion with interest, but will likely not have much more to contribute as I have pretty much exhausted my time - tools - and so called talents here. I think what is really needed is for a true Civil War expert to take a look at what you have and get your items identified once and for all.

I apologize for any misleading information or personal assumptions I may have unintentionally contributed to this topic. It's just my nature and method of doing research that sometimes pays off, and sometimes doesn't.

Good luck. And thanks again for providing us with such a challenging topic of conversation that I am sure will go down in TNet history as one of the most interesting.

Respectfully.

Your researching buddy,

SODABOTTLEBOB

 

[kuger]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

hombre_de_plata_flaco

This is primarily addressed to you because this is your thread. But hopefully it will be read by all and will summarize my personal evaluation to date.

Based on the approximately nine hours of time I have devoted to researching your two soldier photos, and especially the second one, I have arrived at the following possibilities ...

1. There are numerous clues and sufficent information in my opinion to suggest the
individual in the second photo may very well be that of a Confederate soldier from
Texas.

2. If this is true, it may very well be the most valuable photo of the lot.

3. Even if the present clues are deemed somewhat weak at present, I think it would
be highly worth your while to follow this lead and see where it goes.

4. You might even consider submitting images of it to one of those internet Civil War
experts for an evaluation. Some of them even purchase such items should you
ever decide to sell it.

So that's my 2-cents worth. I will continue to follow this discussion with interest, but will likely not have much more to contribute as I have pretty much exhausted my time - tools - and so called talents here. I think what is really needed is for a true Civil War expert to take a look at what you have and get your items identified once and for all.

I apologize for any misleading information or personal assumptions I may have unintentionally contributed to this topic. It's just my nature and method of doing research that sometimes pays off, and sometimes doesn't.

Good luck. And thanks again for providing us with such a challenging topic of conversation that I am sure will go down in TNet history as one of the most interesting.

Respectfully.

Your researching buddy,

SODABOTTLEBOB

Great work Bob,that was very gracious of you.That is what makes this site so valuable...there are no experts on anything but a gathering of knowledgable people whom specialize in knowledge of certain eras.The group as a whole is invaluable

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

kuger ~

Thanks. That was kind of you to share. And I concur about everyone being a team.

Here's one more for the road ...

Extremely Rare Republic of Texas-Period Silver and Gold Hat Badge. Although this insignia is often associated with the Civil War, when it was indeed used, as evidenced by the following lot, this iconic symbol has its origins in this earlier period of Texas history. Many of the, albeit exceedingly rare, examples of the use of this symbol trace their origins to the 1835 - 1845 period rather than the Civil War. 1½" across the points of the star, the badge is slightly convex and expertly fabricated of heavy sheet silver. The edges are decorated with ric-rac engraving, the "T E X A S" neatly hand engraved in shaded block letters at the base of each star arm. The separately affixed center star is of low-grade gold, with a delicately hand engraved shaded border. The sturdy brass loop for attachment appears to actually pass through the badge, and is most likely peaned over underneath the central gold star. There is some evidence of hammer strikes around the base of the loop. This was, due to the convex form, doubtless used as a hat badge with a wooden pin passing through the attachment loop for affixing to the hat. Completely untouched and uncleaned with a wonderful patina. Jeweler quality and generally accepted as being amongst the rarest of American military insignia.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

Jeez ... It looks like everyone wants to get into the picture here! And, yep! He's a Rebel, too. Lol

 

[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

How can I tell the difference between Daguerreotype and Ambrotype? Is cracking open the case the only way? Is the Daguerreotype on paper and the Ambrotype on glass basically? I want to know which is which but I'd rather not open them. I would mess something up for sure.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

You are smart to have restrained yourself from trying to remove the images from their containers without getting expert guidance first.

Also, do not attempt to "repair" the containers without expert guidance.

In your latest post you asked two questions:
> How can I tell the difference between Daguerreotype and Ambrotype? Is cracking open the case the only way?

You may have noticed that in my previous reply-posts I've carefully said "If the photos are indeed tintypes...". I said it that way to note the uncertainty about their "format" -- and correct ID of their format is important, especially if opening the container is neccessary.

Daguerreotype: image on a thin silvered copper plate
Tintype: image on a thin iron plate
Ambrotype: image on a glass plate
Albumen: image is a thin layer of albumen (egg-white and salt) on 100%-cotton paper. A "CDV" (carte-de-visite) is one variety of Albumen photo. Most antique Albumen photos show some cracking, which is a clue in identifying them as Albumen photos.

Being made of iron, you can detect a Daguerreotype image by gently checking a less-important corner of the image with a small magnet. I've followed up my original request by asking my friends for advice on how to ID the photo-type without removing it from its container.

The first set of comments from my mid-1800s-photography expert friends have arrived. It's worth noting that just like here in the What-IS-It? forum, some of the opinions vary from others. I'll post the various comments from my friends, with a dashed-line to separate each writer's comments from the others.

-----------------------------------
Reply #1: The uniform [in image #1] looks like pre/ early war militia. The image appears to be an ambrotype (on glass). Ambrotypes lost popularity to the tintype and was rarely made in the US after the war. I'd say it dates from the mid 1850s- 1861.

The second image color looks odd-- it appears that it may be a paper image in a hard image case. Ask your friend to take it out of the case and post a photo of the back.

Don't remove the matting until certain it is paper or a tintype. Daguerreotypes are very easily damaged when out of the matting/preserver.

My impression of the [2nd] guy is that it is post war-- some things look CS (collar rank?, two piece buckle), but many others just don't fit (odd hat, cut of jacket).

-------------------------
Reply #2: The top image appears to be pre-war era militia. The shako looks to have a UO (reversed) on the front. The second image looks post-war fraternal in nature. Note the sword and odd insignia on the hat.

-------------------------
Reply #3: I have asked another collector who is an authority on SC uniforms about these images. Will post his response. In the meantime, I generally agree with Reply #2. Especially as to the first image. The second, I agree, is post CW, but I am not convinced that it is "fraternal" as opposed to some 1880's-90's military unit. The kepi does not resemble any fraternal cover [meaning, hat] of which I am aware. I note that the sword in the second image is a skinny, post CW sword. Also, I agree that the second image appears to be on paper. Note the bit of white cardstock showing in the upper left hand corner. Will update as info comes in.

-------------------------

Hombre-de-plata-flaco, I'll post additional info from my friends when it arrives. Thee reason one suggested "checking the back" is that old paper photos often have the name of the person written (by hand) on the back.

 

[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

Well darn it, that sucks. Just my luck one would be pre-Civil War and the other post-Civil War.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

Well darn it, that sucks. Just my luck one would be pre-Civil War and the other post-Civil War.

Yes that would affect the value. It may still be a famous officer.
Im sure CannonballGuy will have more opinions.

Im wondering about the star hat. It may be the Indian War era and I notice the old Indian Bob posted has a star hat.