Solar panel, Solar water heater and windmill efficiency?

[Dave44]

Werlieber and I have been discussing this on another thread, but I think it needs it's very own.

My belief is that these options are not ready for prime time, too inefficient, too expensive, and not even close to reliable enough.
An interesting article touting the benefits in Ontario, Cost $80,000 -90,000 for generating 10 KW/ hr ( an electric oven uses I guess about 6KW/hr?);
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/engineer/facts/sol_elec.htm

They say the better electricity panels should last 30-40 years( while they degrade .5 to 1 %/ year)


The solar water heaters last 10 years or less. Mainly due to water quality I guess which is less than optimal in nearly all parts of the country. There is a cost chart in this link;
http://www.aceee.org/consumer/water-heating



The windmill power units last less than their 20 year life span here is a study;
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy07osti/41548.pdf
Have you ever seen the wind mill graveyard on the south end of Hawaii?

And the biggest thing that I see are the huge companies that are forming to drain your money, in subsidies, tax incentives to you, and out right libelous information! Remember Solyndra? They say that cylindrical tubes are some of the most efficient in generating electricity! Not only did they go bankrupt after the infusion of 550 million of your money, they destroyed all of the tubes in stock! At another cost to you in the millions!;
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2012/01/19/bankrupt-solyndra-caught-destroying-brand-new-parts/


And My personal Favorite!!! I want to be efficient! My reasons may be different from yours but the outcome is the same.
After research we installed a geothermal unit that heated water as well as heating and cooling our house. As soon as we finally moved in, the contractor went out of business! When the problems really started a year later we tried to find a reputable contractor and found none, the manufacturer recommended a company in the area and after 5 visits found out they had NO Idea what they were doing!( I figured it out after the first visit, but tried to let them work it out). Finally I fired them!

As it turned out the manufacturer had also declared bankruptcy and was reorganizing, and said they would supply a compressor,(not labor) and that was it. The other problem was that they installed an R-22 unit which gets more expensive everyday! We finally had the system pulled out and installed a new one( different manufacturer) 3 years later.

Original cost $24,000
New unit $13,000 (piping at least was ok!)
Final cost $37,000 Thank goodness with the government efficiency rebates you guys were able to carry some of my costs from these scam artists!

Finally, let me close by saying. If the government gets involved, the best businesses are not the ones in the market, Their business model does not have to work! The biggest customer, the biggest source of money to them is the GOVERNMENT! And that is corrupt.

 

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[werleibr]

Just checking in on this thread so it shows up in the unread replys. Will reply to your post at the end of my lunch hour.

 

[olroy70]

After checking into windmills in NM, I found they would cost $25k. Of course, the electric company would buy excess.... (at half rate)

This was a rebuilt one, so not sure how many hours it had on it. I had paid $50k for the house. I did NOT need A/C, since I was at 6K. If the thing would have provided 100% of my electricity, it would still take a very long time to pay for it. Any troubles, I would have to call them back, and hope they were still in business. So, to borrow that kind of money, I doubt it would have paid the interest on the loan. I just paid the power company! Didn't have a building full of batteries, and bunches of electronics to support.

Since I live in West Texas, where there are lots of windmills, I have some facts on those for ya!
Each one cost one million bucks.... They freeze up when it is cold and raining, when we need more, not less electricity. Every time I go by the big farm that is close, there are about 1 in 20 that are NOT turning. Each windmill pays the landowner $2k a month! Much more than an oil well!!!!!!
In the end, WE the people are paying thru the a$$ for the electricity we are using. my own bill is twice last years!

That is with the money all of you are chipping in to help these companies. Of course, they need major upgrades to the power lines out of these places, too!!!!!!!!

all kinds of natural gas around. build a real power plant, and use it. take a whole lot of less acres!!!!!!!!!! and, we dont have to import windmills from Switzerland! Might even create a couple of jobs building em! work in cold, heat, no wind conditions, and many other advantages!!!!!!!!!!

olroy (hates windmills!)

 

[werleibr]

Sorry for the late reply, got busy at work. You know how that can be Dave, since you are a contractor, work comes and it goes. Well any how back to the topic.

I think I should restart off by stating that I think doing the mass solar, mass windmill farms is not the way to go. I think that we should be doing this at the home level. Also, everything you see being used in the mass solar and mass windmill farms is not at all what you use at home. I am also not suggesting you sink all the money and get completely off the grid at once, but do a slow build up.

So I am going to do a scenario for someone living near Oklahoma City (OKC) a low energy cost area. They decide they want to put in a system that will generate about 2,000 KWh in a year and be tied into the grid so that they do not need to buy batteries and can purchase power as needed. OKC price that they charge per kWh is 9.1¢ (in 2010 was 8.47 in 2009 a 6%increase). They decide to buy two 350 watt wind generators that come with a charge controllers that cost $425 each. They decide on a 3,000W Grid tie inverter for $1400. They also get a diversion load as an that cost $130.

It is estimated that they will have enough wind to produce energy for 270 days out of the year (about a third of a year) for 10 hours in those days. Also the overall efficiency in each wind turbine is estimated to be 20%. It is also estimated that the power inverter has an efficiency of 90%. So, taking that all into consideration, one wind generator will produce 63 watts while running (350*0.20*0.90), which in turn is 340,200 Watt hours a year or 340 KWh(63 watts *2 generators * 10 hours a day * 180 days a year).

So total cost of system so far is $2380 ($425*2 +$1400+$130), but there will be more to this system at a later time. I will not add these in until after the solar due to the fact that the solar power will use much of the same items.

Now for Solar they decide to go with 14 100W solar panels at $325 each and 14 micro-inverters at $200 each (includes shipping). Using PVWatts ac energy and cost savings, which helps account for losses of electricity, the Average kWh produced for the whole year is 1811 KWh. PVWatts takes time of year and the solar radiation that it creates in a day at the area in question. Total cost was $7,350

With both of these now figured out let us look at the total power output and cost so far. For total power output in a given year we have 2,151 kWh, just above are goal of 2,000 kWh. Total cost so far is $9,730. Now there are other costs to think of like conduits, wire lugs, another circuit breaker, any ditches made. This added cost is estimated to be around $800 conservatively. This brings our total cost to $10,530. This is a large investment I do realize, but we are not done yet. There is a 30% tax credit for the system which is $3,159. There was no other state or federal incentives. So the total cost of this system was $7,371. This turns out to be $3.42 per kWh.

Now to calculate the payback period; we will do both system costs of $10,530 and the $7,371 in case one forgets to fill out forms for tax incentive. If we are producing 2,151 kWh in a year and the energy cost from the utility company is 9.1 ¢ per kWh, the total savings would be $195 a year. With $195 a year saved, it would take 38 years for it to pay its self back for $7000 system or 54 years if you did not get the incentive and there was no increase in cost of electricity. Assuming there was an increase in energy costs. And if there was a constant yearly increase in energy cost of 3% conservatively then the payback period would be 25 years for the $7,000 and 32 for when it was $10,000. Just outside the useful life.

Now these are all just looking for items and buying them À la carte and not getting in deep in everything and using Oklahomas rates. If you want to figure your payback for your energy costs here is how. Set up an excel file like so

YearUtility cost per kWhWatts ProducedSavingsInvestment
00007,371 or 10,530
10.XX2151=(utility cost per kWh)*2151=Cell above minus Savings
2the cell Above utility cost *1.03 (this is a 3% increase for larger use 1.XX and replace the X with your value2151=(utility cost per kWh)*2151=Cell above minus Savings
3the cell Above utility cost *1.03 (this is a 3% increase for larger use 1.XX and replace the X with your value2151=(utility cost per kWh)*2151=Cell above minus Savings


If you need the excel file created, I would be happy to make it up for who ever wants it and make it so that they can input their own values.

A Good system that was put in, better than the one I just pulled together can be found here http://homepower.com/view/?file=HP100_pg22_Geisler I found it after just selecting different things. His system cost around $10,000 also. He generates about 10 kWh per day or 3650 kWh per year. IF you follow his, his payback with the 3% increase each year would be 16 years if you use the incentive or 21 years if you do not. This falls right within the useful l life of the system.

To find out what incentives for going with renewable energy or getting energy star rated appliences in your state go here http://www.dsireusa.org/

 

[rockhound]

There is an energy section, and a thread for solar, wind and hydro power. All these things yo state are true, but the one thing that you didn't say is, what happens when the grid goes down and you are the only one that has any power at all for any time. Sure, you can run an electric generator, but for how long. Our grid system is atiquated, built shortly after the turn of the century. Any day now a solar flare, tornado, hurricane, earthquake or snow storm can take it out. Running power lines above ground is asking for trouble, which is whay now most power lines are buried. They are too vulnerable to weather and other disasters. Solar panels are not very efficient, but there are solar systems that are highly efficient. Good Luck. rockhound

 

[onfire]

Why don't they make solar panels out of CAR SEATS and steering wheels ( tends to work in Arizona in August) Again I ask how do you heat a Electric car in the winter?? How much juice do you lose when it's on

 

[davest]

you don't heat the entire car, the air inside the car is a poor conductor of heat or a/c. What is heated is the seats or the windows.

Use your search engine and just type the words: Electric cars/heating/ac and read.

For the rest of the discussion, instead of going whole hog and buying panels etc, just using a solar domestic water preheating tank will effectively stop you from using power company generated power to produce your domestic hot water. You can build your own very cheaply by using a water heater tank(from a discarded used one)plywood, reflective insulation and a discarded sliding glass door(two if you want max efficiency) try looking for solar batch heaters in your selected s.e.

It's not so much as getting entirely off the grid that pleases me, as it is just saving that 4.00 a month that I'm not giving to progress/duke energy along with the misc taxes.

Electric cars will develop over time, heck combustion motor driven cars have developed over time.

 

[onfire]

Quote from David "you don't heat the entire car, the air inside the car is a poor conductor of heat or a/c. What is heated is the seats or the windows." Dave do you live in the tropics? Heating your A$$ and putting your nose on a window doesn't cut it up north, So your telling me all these years that little blower in my old tech runner really hasn't been heating the air that surrounds me??/

 

[davest]

I would say, instead of taking me to task, type "electric cars/heat/ac" into your search engine.

I didn't say a word about your tech vehicle not heating the air around you, did I?

 

[Dave44]

Maybe you should go a little slower for me Werl. Are you saying 10 kwh/day? what can you power with this?

I think your point is that you cannot live with this, but you can sell power back to the Utility company, because you have no storage capacity? This is not a worthwhile project as your figures indicate.
The 21 year turnaround in payback is not a payback at all. It is time to buy new equipment, making it a hobby with no gain.

Remember, if it has to be subsidized it is because it is unsustainable! If you build a mousetrap that works, the world will beat a path to your door!
Government only rewards companies that give to them, the company has no other worth.

 

[Dave44]

I need to add this for Davest. Subsidies gone wild!

http://www.pewlaw.com/ener1-pre-packaged-bankruptcy
"On January 26, two days after President Obama’s State of the Union Address, Ener1, Inc., another “green energy” recipient of $118.5 million in taxpayer stimulus dollars followed Solyndra into bankruptcy. The stimulus money was given to Ener1’s subsidiary, EnerDel, in the form of a grant from the U.S. Department of Energy. Because EnerDel was not joined with its parent company in bankruptcy, Ener1 insists the ARRA grant will not be affected."


"Listen closely to Vice President Joe Biden drooling all over Ener1 employees. The company, which made batteries for electric cars, is bankrupt. Biden promises that the Obama Administration will make petroleum more expensive than alternative fuel sources — like Ener1 batteries. Ener1 received Obama stimulus funds — now down another green energy rathole."



And what does the Audi guy say about the volt?
http://www.marfdrat.net/2011/12/16/audi-chief-calls-chevy-volt-a-car-for-idiots/#.TzaRn_nPzg0

 

[Frankn]

Hay you guys, skip the overtones and stick to the topic. Anyone that is interested in the whole package, that is solar, water power, plus location info, plus car info, plus water heaters, etc.etc. the book you must have is Solar Living Source Book Written by, John Schaeffer It is published by, Gaiam - Real Goods. It lists suppliers and prices. Check it out. I have the special 30th Ann. Edition. Frank

 

[Dave44]

Hay you guys, skip the overtones and stick to the topic. Anyone that is interested in the whole package, that is solar, water power, plus location info, plus car info, plus water heaters, etc.etc. the book you must have is Solar Living Source Book Written by, John Schaeffer It is published by, Gaiam - Real Goods. It lists suppliers and prices. Check it out. I have the special 30th Ann. Edition. Frank

And there is my exact point. I have run the #s and found that I really do not think it is worth investing in for me! But I like the concept and think in the future it could work. I have been looking at it since I was very young, so for about 35 years. The basics have not really changed.

Apparently Frankn is comfortable with it. So Frankn, Have you installed any of these? How are they working for you? We assume there is no profit, so that must not be your motivation. Do you feel comfortable relying on it? Do you feel like there will be new breakthroughs every few years to make your purchase obsolete? Will you continue to upgrade as you feel necessary?

Finally, do you really think it is more than a hobby at this point? As stated, I have a geothermal unit that heats my water. The new high efficiency heat pumps and a tankless water heater would have done better, for less. But I figured that through overregulation, I would take the administration at their word to make energy prices "skyrocket".

 

[davest]

and I guess that has something to do with heating/ac of a cars interior.

Jeeez, don't you ever stop with the political bulllcrap? Seems like you had no problem taking a government subsidy in order to install a geothermal system you say you checked out to be efficient but wasn't.

How many other things are you on the government teat for?

 

[olroy70]

The guvment NEVER gives anything until is steals from the people, Weibler!!!!!

And, only after they pay for everyone that touches the money!

The more guvment, the less money that filters down, and the less money each of us have at the end of the week.

I hate most guvment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 0lroy

 

[Dave44]

and I guess that has something to do with heating/ac of a cars interior.

Jeeez, don't you ever stop with the political bulllcrap? Seems like you had no problem taking a government subsidy in order to install a geothermal system you say you checked out to be efficient but wasn't.

How many other things are you on the government teat for?

I am glad you noticed that I bought into some of this and decided that it does not make sense!, Now, How many of these cars do you own? Surely if you espouse the virtue of something, you have bought it and know the truth of it? How much of the Gov teeters are you on?

By the way, ,how is this political Sounds like exposing graft and corruption to me? Why would you stand up for that?

 

[Frankn]

Dave44, No, I am waiting for my ship to come in with the $30K on board lol. There is a new company in Ca. that has found a way to "print" the solor material onto rolls of aluminum. There entire first run went to a power plant in Germany. I don't recall the name of the company, I read so much that I can not always remember the source, only the content.
Some one keeps asking about electric car heat and air. The heat is resistive and the air is an electric motor driven compressor. The compressor is a next generation unit that will also show up on some new gas cars. Frank

 

[Dave44]

Dave44, No, I am waiting for my ship to come in with the $30K on board lol. There is a new company in Ca. that has found a way to "print" the solor material onto rolls of aluminum. There entire first run went to a power plant in Germany. I don't recall the name of the company, I read so much that I can not always remember the source, only the content.
Some one keeps asking about electric car heat and air. The heat is resistive and the air is an electric motor driven compressor. The compressor is a next generation unit that will also show up on some new gas cars. Frank

You and I have this in common Frankn! I watch and try to pay attention. I do the math and see if it is feasible or if it costs beyond my comfort zone! When it is ready,(not because of gov intervention) I am there. By the way, government manipulation is inherently political, if you bought the herring because it is red this cycle, the new cycle may decide to change the color. The ONLY constant is practicality and price.

 

[werleibr]

See now here is the problem with the way all of you think. You only think how will this help me. ME ME ME. Stop and think a little, If it is not right for you then it is not right for you, but that does not mean the option might not be right for someone else. Why do you have to store the power? The reason I left that portion out is because of the large costs for the batteries. You do have the option of not needing them and selling back to the grid or just reducing your grid amount. Now you are worried about a 21 year payback, that is the time to invest in new ones. But you fail to think outside the box, if the peson is able to, they can constantly add to the system. But doing this is not for everyone and I realize that, but like I said just because something does not work for you does not mean it will not work for others.

And you all started discussing a roll out solar cell, well I got something a little better. They are about 60% or better with a spray on solar cell. I have not heard of the progress since I left school, but there has been a race to see who can get a comercially available version going first. I also have not heard on the toxicity tests on them yet.

And another thing... If you are good with electronics and wiring, you can make your own solar pannels for half the price. Just sayin.

 

[Dave44]

Re: Solar panel, Solar water heater and windmill efficiency?
Reply To This Topic #18 Posted Today at 05:41:00 am

Reply with quoteQuote
See now here is the problem with the way all of you think. You only think how will this help me. ME ME ME. Stop and think a little, If it is not right for you then it is not right for you, but that does not mean the option might not be right for someone else.

No, this shows a problem in the way YOU think. If something is detrimental to you personally,( either monetarily or physically) then why would you do it? Eventually your bad choices will make your viability suffer. And that will definitely limit your ability to take care of yourself, you can follow the logic from there!
If someone has the money and likes the hobby, by all means get after it. But some misplaced do good sentiment does not make the future of mankind brighter just because you disagree with logic.

When this technology is viable I plan on getting on board. But not because some slick talking scam artist told me it was a great product before it was ready.
By the way, how many hunters have game cameras with solar cell chargers? I have one, and have had 3 solar chargers for it.


Keep your finger on it werl! Let me know when it really is ready for prime time! And let us know when you have decided to buy this for yourself as that may also be an indicator.