Small Scale Mining Questions/Advice

[n01d3x]

I may have the opportunity to try my luck at a legit small scale mining operation very soon. I have ran backhoes and loaders plenty but never in a mining capacity. For those that have, I am looking for your input.
I am looking at Heckler trommel that says it's capable of running 7 to 10 tons per hour. I will be running semi-cemented tertiary gravels. Can I expect to be able to reach that? Say 9 yards per hour, which is a little under 7 tons per hours?
Starting out I would just have one machine, I'm thinking of something similar to a Kubota BX25.

With just one person, sometimes more but mostly just me, would I be able to run 9 yards per hour? In my mind I'm thinking, digging and stock piling for 3 hours and then running at 9 yards per hour for 5 or 6 hours. I know maintenance and break downs would be involved, but aside from that, would this be possible?
I'm not asking about being profitable, testing or anything else. Just does it sound possible to process this much material, with just one guy and the above mentioned equipment?

 

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[Goldwasher]

If your running while your stripping you are not going to strip as much as you would if you were just in the pit. Just as you would not be able to feed at your top end rate. Looks good on paper in practice not so much.

He is small and sounds like basically solo.

You can not strip, dig pay, move to the plant feed and deal with tailings at the same time. While watching the plant to make sure it is running right.

I think a feeder is a good idea even with stockpiled pay.

Stockpiling is very common especially on big mines.

If you strip and dig pay for three days and have a hundred yards ready to go you can spend one day running the plant with even feed and have the ability to keep up with the tailings and waste rock the doesn't go into the feed of the plant.

I would love someone who works alone even with a mini excavator and a dump truck to share how they strip de-rock and run thirty yards a day.

Pictures please.... I'll be waiting.

Even with sluices and high bankers. if you don't have material to run there are times where the only thing going through the box is water. Not to big of a deal with a stream sluice. Wasting fuel messing with recovery with anything else.

I don't start feeding until I have about a quarter yard of material ready to run. with another quarter loosened. Filling one bucket bringing it to the processing gear running it going back getting another bucket over and over is not as productive as having even twenty buckets of bank run in a pile ready to dig an feed. You still have to carry the buckets.

With a 10yd an hour machine I would run 8 yds an hour and wouldn't run until I had 30 yards ready to run. on the last day of the work week.


When your alone. If your digging your not sluicing. When your sluicing your not digging. You might as well be done digging.

Same thing when you scale up. It makes a whole heck of a lot of sense to stockpile.

Another aspect is reclamation. If you strip an area set the material aside. Detail the bedrock with a detector and get into the bedrock for its gold.

Once you start running you can deal with all the tailings by getting them back over to the area you mined. Reclaiming ground as you run. Knowing you already got all the gold out. If you have a truck or trailer to dump tailings into it will make it a little better. But, if your by your self your gonna have to move material two even three times. That is not an unheard of thing on a placer mine.

It's a common type of plan for a small placer op to strip, stockpile, run and reclaim in a multi step pattern.

It's called a mining plan. If you try to get a plan approved in the N.F. and you don't present something like I just spelled out. Your not going to get approved. If you don't follow it you'll get shut down. Private land sure do what you want. Though it makes more sense to follow the best practices that are proven to produce.

 

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[n01d3x]

Great advice Goldwasher, thanks! I will be filling a poo with hopes of approval once I get a couple of things squared away. Once and if, I get this all up and running I plan on inviting some of the regulars here up. It's going to take a nice chunk of change, but screw it, may as well give it a shot.

 

[blackchipjim]

Hey goldwasher when submit the poo do you have to declare amounts of material being moved and locations within the claim?

 

[n01d3x]

For what it's worth, I just got off of the phone with my local BLM office. He says that if I stay under 5 acres or 1,000 tons at a time all I need is a NOI and not a POO. He says a reclamation bond would be required but since there's really nothing to reclaim on the claim it would just be the cost of my equipment removal if I abandoned it.

 

[Bejay]

You might want to call back and thank him but you might want to ask: what CFR he is citing/using to make the determination for your NOI requirement? Then post what CFR he is using? Remember that by initiating the NOI you are entering into a contract with the BLM. It is always nice to know what path you are taking and what is actually required per their own regs....and what is not required per their CFRs.

Bejay

 

[Goldwasher]

I too would just skip the NOI if it's blm. And so, small.

It's up to you to decide if you need an NOI and POO

Put your plan on paper follow it. If someone comes know the laws and your plan.

FS would end up being a different situation especially in CA. though El Dorado seems to be pretty lax.

 

[Goldwasher]

Hey goldwasher when submit the poo do you have to declare amounts of material being moved and locations within the claim?

Well I would only submit a poo if I had decided to submit an NOI and the district ranger required a POO.

It is more about how you will disturb the surface overall and the ability and ease of reclamation. Riparian areas and timber removal get iffy. District rangers are all over the place on trying to tell people they need them. Some used to claim you needed them to dredge.. even though there is no surface disturbance.


Exploration should never need it.

Mining you should have a mining plan. If you are working small areas and reclaiming as you go you shouldn't bother with a POO.

A Mining Plan on paper should include the size of the area you want to work at a time how you will be dealing with water as in settling. And how you will reclaim.
using what are considered best practices. Staking off areas your working and reclaiming and sticking to it. There are no laws as to what you can use and how much it can process at a time. Keep your work area small reclaim it before you move on.

As long as you are using an existing road or trail and not driving gear in the waterway or introducing material from outside of it into it you should be ok. Blm allows you to cut brush and burn it even.When allowed locally air quality wise. A mining claim gives you certain rights to use of water and wood.

A mining plan can be used as your POO but, you don't need to submit a POO if your running a small clean op. The way you dig on a claim may change based on where you are digging. the reclamation may change too. But, overall you can at how you will work and reclaim in general and apply it to your overall operation..

If you want to live out there for certain periods they are really going to ratchet up on "requiring" a NOI and then POO.

Some guys I have read of that have a POO stated they do it just to avoid future hassles.

I think Reed had one cause they made him have a porta potty.

 

[n01d3x]

It was kind of nice that he basically defined for me what he considers a major surface disturbance though. I kind of assumed that anytime your using a backhoe or any other kind of heavy equipment you would need an approved POO. What I got from my convo with him was that anything under 5 acres or less than 1000 tons at a time doesn't require a POO. He said the NOI was specifically for the trommel and the backhoe, and was basically just to make myself responsible on paper for that equipment. Going by that logic, I know I will not abandone my equipment so I see no need for an NOI. I will document my plan and Mark everything out.

 

[Bejay]

It sure would be nice to know what authority code he relied on for his NOI request. USFS must rely on authority codes for all that they do and say. The CFR is their authority.....other than that everything is just "talk". They are the surface management authority, and that authority is given them with CFRs. Anytime a miner is confronted with a "surface management authority representative request" they should ask what authority code applies to them. What "he" considers a major surface disturbance is just "talk" and is really defined in the CFRs..... and even they deter from the actual Laws per the Secretary definition. It is very simple to ask what CFR he cites to make "HIS" determination. Then it is very simple for some to see if it applies or not. Why not know if he and you are on the same page per the CFRs and applicable Laws?

Remember one thing. When you do a NOI or POO you are giving up your Miming Law Rights and signing an agreement (contract) to abide by their surface management authority. That said; a miner wants to be assured that they did not enter into that agreement without justifiable cause. Just as importantly a miner does not want to take on the USFS without justifiable applications of USFS's own codes of authority. It is their codes.....hold them to the fire to abide by them...and all is well.

Bejay

 

[n01d3x]

I will ask what cfr he is going by. I'm just trying to cross my t's and dot my i's before spending the kind of money I'm about to spend to mine up there.

 

[blackchipjim]

Hey goldwasher , in your reply you made a statement of driving into waterway or dumping material back into it. Does that mean a wash and if the material came out of the wash can't it be put back there?

 

[Bejay]

It was kind of nice that he basically defined for me what he considers a major surface disturbance though. I kind of assumed that anytime your using a backhoe or any other kind of heavy equipment you would need an approved POO. What I got from my convo with him was that anything under 5 acres or less than 1000 tons at a time doesn't require a POO. He said the NOI was specifically for the trommel and the backhoe, and was basically just to make myself responsible on paper for that equipment. Going by that logic, I know I will not abandone my equipment so I see no need for an NOI. I will document my plan and Mark everything out.

Miners must realize there is no definition of "surface disturbance" .

The term "significant surface disturbance" was a way for the Secretary to try to get around the legal standard "unnecessary or undue degradation" found in the FLPMA. Don't be distracted by the words. The following is the only legal definition on which the BLM or Forest Service can rely.
Supreme Court wrote:
"[a] reasonable interpretation of the word 'unnecessary' is that which is not necessary for mining.

'Undue' is that which is excessive, improper, immoderate or unwarranted."

Utah v. Andrus, 486 F. Supp.

995, 1005 n.13 (D. Utah 1979)

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

I doubt that the bulk density of the material is ton = yard.

But you probably won't be measuring either.

They just are not interchangeable. This hardly matters, but is a good idea to keep things clear in your thoughts.

I may have the opportunity to try my luck at a legit small scale mining operation very soon. I have ran backhoes and loaders plenty but never in a mining capacity. For those that have, I am looking for your input.
I am looking at Heckler trommel that says it's capable of running 7 to 10 tons per hour. I will be running semi-cemented tertiary gravels. Can I expect to be able to reach that? Say 9 yards per hour, which is a little under 7 tons per hours?
Starting out I would just have one machine, I'm thinking of something similar to a Kubota BX25.

With just one person, sometimes more but mostly just me, would I be able to run 9 yards per hour? In my mind I'm thinking, digging and stock piling for 3 hours and then running at 9 yards per hour for 5 or 6 hours. I know maintenance and break downs would be involved, but aside from that, would this be possible?
I'm not asking about being profitable, testing or anything else. Just does it sound possible to process this much material, with just one guy and the above mentioned equipment?

 

[n01d3x]

Doesn't 1 ton = 1.35 yards?

 

[Goldwasher]

Doesn't 1 ton = 1.35 yards?

Volume stays the same density can change. Therefore so can the weight within the measured volume.

Hardrock tends to be measured in tons

Placer in yards

 

[arizau]

Sand and gravel loads tend to self fill all gaps and a load of larger stones or broken ore leaves a lot of voids between them.

 

[Goldwasher]

Hey goldwasher , in your reply you made a statement of driving into waterway or dumping material back into it. Does that mean a wash and if the material came out of the wash can't it be put back there?

Don't go to far makin me say things I didn't say.

First a wash is a wash it is looked at differently. Most aren't considered even perennial waterways. One of the reasons I don't buy that sb 637 affects drywashers.

There are regulations about material from out side of the high water line entering a waterway.

Instream mining is lawful. However getting into a mountain stream with a small excavator or backhoe is not going to go over very well. Especially in Ca.

The associated fuel residue , fitting grease, hydraulic oil etc. alone will make blood boil. It would also put you into the scope of a streambed alteration permit.

There are many a stream I would love to work bank to bank. Honestly though If I can't do it with a dredge I'm not going to do it with a tractor of some sort.

In the desert without flowing water there are all kinds of things you can do that will never get a second look.

As far as taking material out and putting it back in well, the supreme court doesn't have an issue with it in active waterways.

One of the main reasons any anti dredging laws are BS

It's Ca fish and game code and F.S. rules that don't allow for the introduction of earthen material of materials deleterious to fish including "sand and gravel"

I don't write their rule or enforce them. I just read them and share them.

 

[mytimetoshine]

Very cool Shane. Id love to check it out sometime. I work cheap! lol