Shipwreck Coin ID

[Goldendiver]

Mexican cob coins. They appear small--like 1/2 or 1 real coins.
Their weight will more closely determine their denomination.
27.468 grams for an 8R coin; proportionately less of lower denominations (4, 2, 1 and 1/2R coins)
They appear pitted (from the sea) and heavily cleaned
As a gift, their values are priceless.
Don....

Really appreciate your input.
Any shapes in particular to look for on this to help identify the wreck?
Hard to get an accurate weight with the gold bails.
The smaller one weights in at 4 grams, the larger one at 5 grams.
The smaller one is 3/4 inch at it's widest point.
The larger one is an inch at it's widest point. (not sure if these dimensions at all help.

 

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[ARC]

Really appreciate your input.
Any shapes in particular to look for on this to help identify the wreck?
Hard to get an accurate weight with the gold bails.
The smaller one weights in at 4 grams, the larger one at 5 grams.
The smaller one is 3/4 inch at it's widest point.
The larger one is an inch at it's widest point. (not sure if these dimensions at all help.

Dimensions mean little for authentication purposes...

Its the weight that bears most significance.

Problem is... those are set in bezels... so correct weight is a problem.

 

[huntsman53]

If they are fakes they are pretty good. The pitting looks exactly like the shipwreck coins I have.

I could be wrong about the coins but I have seen and held quite a few genuine specimens, some at Mel's old Galleon Museum, some that a friend found from the shipwreck off Islamorada and others. Mel even faked some Spanish Reale pieces to help pay investors and even admitted it in Court.

What you see as pitting, I see as air bubbles that developed when pouring the composition into a mold.

 

[ARC]

I could be wrong about the coins but I have seen and held quite a few genuine specimens, some at Mel's old Galleon Museum, some that a friend found from the shipwreck off Islamorada and others. Mel even faked some Spanish Reale pieces to help pay investors and even admitted it in Court.

What you see as pitting, I see as air bubbles that developed when pouring the composition into a mold.

? ? ?

Huntsman...

Mell NEVER faked ANY coins... EVER.

 

[diverlynn]

Sure he did, common knowledge.

 

[ARC]

Um... IF you knew the REAL story. heh

First off HE never faked anything.

Secondly... it was a friend of his.

Thirdly... He ONLY admitted to this to STOP the court proceedings to free up the endless red tape and years of future court battles...

By going ahead with a plea it stopped the madness.


NOW... you can get your facts straight.

 

[ARC]

The state of Florida accused Mel of counterfeiting coins after initial examination by the states examiner said the coins were indeed faked...

when in fact upon later examination by a REAL expert using high tech analysis...

determined they were not fakes.

 

[ARC]

THE FAKE coins were never Atocha.

The coins that were fakes were supposed tio be real... they belonged to his buddy who assured Mel of their authenticity.

The coins were supposedly from OTHER wrecks.

The coins in question were NEVER passed as Atocha.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

The state of Florida accused Mel of counterfeiting coins after initial examination by the states examiner said the coins were indeed faked...

when in fact upon later examination by a REAL expert using high tech analysis...

determined they were not fakes.

AARC, were those the coins that they did determine were counterfeit but had been under the sea for a few hundred years, deciding they were counterfeited in colonial times?

I too remember the plea deal as you stated.

When you're King many people hate you!

 

[seekerGH]

What you see as pitting, I see as air bubbles that developed when pouring the composition into a mold.

The pitting, in my humble opinion, looks to have been exposed with the attempts to bead blast a casting....

same observation....

In my picture / screen I distinctly see "copper" worn through on the cross... err part of rather.

Many places that buy gold have a pXRF. This will tell you the exact composition of the piece.

We use the XRF on artefacts, and it is so close, you can group coins by individual pours.

 

[Mackaydon]

Goldendiver,
Welcome to Treasure Net !!
Each cob has a unique shape since it was formed by cutting the coin with shears down to the proper weight.
Nor, for the same reason, can the shape of a cob assist in the designation of any shipwreck
Don.........

 

[huntsman53]

? ? ?

Huntsman...

Mel NEVER faked ANY coins... EVER.

I am sorry, I was going off an old news story from many years ago which is apparently not available online anymore or at least, I cannot find it! He did admit to selling counterfeited Gold Coins in his' Shop that were purchased from a longtime colleague. I knew a elderly gentleman who moved here from Ft. Myers and said that he lived across the canal from Mel and Deo and had some stories to tell which I will not divulge here as they cannot be corroborated. Anyway, I knew both Mel and his' wife Deo and sat and talked to them on the deck of the old Galleon Museum in Key West quite a few times while downing beers.

 

[huntsman53]

What you see as pitting, I see as air bubbles that developed when pouring the composition into a mold.

The pitting, in my humble opinion, looks to have been exposed with the attempts to bead blast a casting....
same observation....

same observation....

Not!!! Air bubbles which develop on the surface of coins or other items when compositions are poured into a mold, are totally different from pitting that develops from bead blasting a casting.

 

[realeswatcher]

By style, the pieces are almost certainly 1715 Fleet. Both Mexico, the first one shown dates 1701-1712; second piece 1712-14 (enough on the shields to determine that). Both would appear to be 1 Real denomination based on the relative dimension of what's visible (looks like the first is a bit more seaworn, plus was a more compact planchet as made).

By the way, note that the half-real denomination (of ANY mint) used the MONOGRAM design, not the shield or pillars/waves...

I see nothing about the porosity to suggest that these aren't genuine low-grade Fleet finds. Rather than nice center-clump finds, probably loose pieces, rather moderately eaten at/sea-washed, that were then fully blasted/stripped. We're seeing spots where the salt water adhesions ate into the surfaces and then once stripped away, those pores and half-eaten surfaces, mushy from seawear and cleaning, are left behind. This is why for numismatic purposes, you shouldn't go SUPER heavy on the cleaning because what's underneath the crud is often not pretty (though in some cases, it wouldn't matter much either way). Not really of "numismatic" quality, these pieces often end up in jewelry like we have here, headed for tourist sucker shops along the cruise circuit, etc. (and of course, in the Fisher shop also) to be sold at a very healthy markup over the bullion value of the bezel plus the low value of the coin.

The bezels look like (solid) 14K that typically ends up on these... of course that is to be in confirmed in hand.

The following are actually not from the 1715 Fleet, but the Joanna wreck off South Africa... this lot came to mind to give an idea of how such material presents (that wreck was notorious for most of it's finds being rather sea-worn and then overcleaned/stripped bare):

https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/1-1K5LH

A few more extreme examples, actually from the 1715 Fleet:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mexico-Sil...-Coin-w-Mel-Fisher-Cobb-Coin-COA/202191320329
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1715-Fleet-Shipwreck-Recovered-Mexico-Silver-Cob-1-2-Real-/391957408861

PS - On the matter(s) of fakes and such that have been (half) discussed... the notable court case (ca. 1997) was in regards to purported ca. 1730 Mexico 2 Escudos pieces that were sold as 1733 Fleet finds. In reality, these were shown to be outright modern fakes. Yes, some metallurgical testing was done, but frankly would not have been necessary to people who knew their Mexican gold well, as the style was not quite correct for the period. Of course, true coin people were not the primary market for those...

INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS; Hunter Admits Sale of Fake Gold Coins - The New York Times

There was also the question (from back in the early 1970s) of some purported 1733 Fleet milled Mexico pillar 8 Reales. These were rare 1732 and 1733, the first two dates of the style... oddly including several mintmark/assayer combinations which were previously unknown (and have not been observed since). These were a subject of rather intense scrutiny at the time... some almost made it to public sale (several appear in the Schulman Sept. 1973 auction catalog, though were apparently pulled before the sale). It appears that over time, these were generally discredited and disappeared off the scene. You occasionally see a piece of this style surface on eBay, often coming from sources (or heirs of such) that make sense as having had access to them.

coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=151633
colonialcobs.com/forum/index.php?topic=125.0
colonialcobs.com/forum/index.php?topic=98.0

That's not really what we're looking at in the case of these pieces.

 

[Boatlode]

? ? ?

Huntsman...

Mell NEVER faked ANY coins... EVER.

Nope. Mel has been accused of a lot of stuff, but he never faked any coins. If I remember correctly the coins he was accused of faking were some unique pillar dollars from one of the 1733 wrecks of a date & mint that was unknown to exist at that time. The first expert from the ANA to examine the coins declared them to be fake, probably influenced by all of the bad press and false accusations about Mel that were floating around at the time. Mel then got an expert from Spain to examine the coins, and he verified that they were real.

 

[Goldendiver]

By style, the pieces are almost certainly 1715 Fleet. Both Mexico, the first one shown dates 1701-1712; second piece 1712-14 (enough on the shields to determine that). Both would appear to be 1 Real denomination based on the relative dimension of what's visible (looks like the first is a bit more seaworn, plus was a more compact planchet as made).

Thank you very much for the abundant information that you have provided! Your time and response are greatly appreciated. If you don't mind me asking when looking at the shields what specifically stuck out to you as being apart of the 1715 fleet? I'm merely asking to educate myself on what has now become such great interest to me.

 

[Goldendiver]

Goldendiver,
Welcome to Treasure Net !!
Each cob has a unique shape since it was formed by cutting the coin with shears down to the proper weight.
Nor, for the same reason, can the shape of a cob assist in the designation of any shipwreck
Don.........

Thanks for the tip and education.
Much appreciated!