Shipwecks

[Jolly Mon]

I don't think JM meant they can't be proven to exist historically or that they were military, but that the actual sites Ben Benson found were proven to be the LaGalga and Juno.

Exactly, Darren. The court basically decided the sites in question were Juno and Galaga with no provenance. Considering the number of potential shipwrecks in the area in question, this was patently absurd. But the court did it anyway. Anyone who believes protection under the ASA or SMCA will require ironclad proof (no pun intended) of vessel identity is fooling themselves.

But back to the point: the ASA applies to potentially historic shipwrecks, not sovereign sunken military craft. Once a vessel is determined, no matter how dubiously, to be a sunken military craft, that vessel is protected under the Sunken Military Craft Act, NOT the ASA. A sunken military craft must be expressly abandoned by the sovereign state in question in order to be eligible for Admiralty arrest or potentially, ASA...inclusion of a military craft under ASA is possible, but highly unlikely.

The basic requirements for protection under the ASA are that the wreck lie within the 3 mile limit and that the wreck be eligible for inclusion in the National Historic Register. If the Archies we all love and admire so much decide the wreck is "historic", it falls under the aegis of the ASA. The wreck could be a garbage scow or a shrimp boat...if the Archies say it is "historic", it's historic.

 

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[Jolly Mon]

Looking at the research, I think it was proven that the Juno and LaGalga were sovereign, not abandoned, and the property of Spain. I do not see where it was proven that those sites were the Juno and La Galga.

 

[seekerGH]

In order to prove they are sovereign, you must prove they are Military,

Not exactly. There are plenty of State owned vessels which are not military. They are the owners, which happen to be sovereign entities.

 

[Salvor6]

I'm surprised everyone has forgotten about that famous book "The Hidden Galleon" by John Amrhein Jr. He found the La Galga on Assategue Island. It sank in the inlet to a lagoon and the lagoon silted in. It is now buried on land. Amrhein researched the American and Spanish archives and did a mag survey on land to find the ship. The famous ponies of Assategue came from the La Galga. Amrhein gives all the archival documents and oral history's of the Indians to prove his point. He also did a mag survey to locate the remains. Read the book. You will be convinced!

 

[seekerGH]

perhaps you should read up on that story.

In 1947, Marguerite Henry, wrote Misty of Chincoteague, a fictional account of real people of Chincoteague and a beautiful young pony named Misty. Her story documents the shipwreck legend that she was told of during her stay on the island. In 1961, 20th Century Fox released the movie based on this book.
In 1980, the author (John Amrhein Jr.) was convinced like others that he could easily locate the wreck of La Galga after researching American and Spanish archives. He made no connection with the legend of the wild horses and La Galga as they had been attributed to another ship called the San Lorenzo, but that ship was the invention of a convincing con man.
Soon, the author found himself in a federal courthouse where the State of Maryland had laid claim to the fictitious wreck. Marylands attorney general fought to keep the author s evidence of the fraud out of the public record.
The make-believe ship was awarded to the state based solely on a fraudulent affidavit. Now, armed with knowledge of the shipwreck legend obtained from a descendant of an Assateague Indian and great nephew of a real life character in Misty of Chincoteague, the author's search for La Galga resumes, not in the ocean, but on the sands and marshes of Assateague where he discovers that the ship s remains are hidden in a forgotten inlet.
After discovery, the author informed the public and the federal government about the wreck's location. Federal officials declined his offer to demonstrate the discovery made in the Chincoteague National Wildlife Refuge. In 1998, a treasure hunter claimed he had located La Galga in 20 feet of water just off the deserted beaches of Assateague. But at the end of the litigation, all parties had to admit that they did not know where the wreck really was.
In spite of this, and at the insistence of the federal government, the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals in Richmond, Virginia awarded La Galga to the Kingdom of Spain.

"After discovery, the author informed the public and the federal government about the wreck's location." This does not mean that Amrhein actually discovered the wreck, but simply had discovered the location as being hidden in some forgotten inlet, not actually locating the wreck.
Again, the Juno and La Galga were determined to be Spanish sovereign property, and it does not matter where, nor even if, the actual wrecks had been located.

The precedent of 'abandonment' and sovereign immunity for shipwrecks was made in these legal determinations, which had and will have, profound ramifications to shipwreck recovery.

 

[Vox veritas]

With the "scam" Juno and Galga were many exchanges of favors. For example: the problem of Sea Hunt began in 1998, the same year that Odyssey Marine appears in Spanish waters. Another coincidence? Think .... !!

 

[Vox veritas]

I'm sorry. To be traslated from Spanish. Future agreement Sea Hunt - Ministry of Culture of Spain for the Juno and Galga. Agreement signed in 2003.

 

[Vox veritas]

P,S. I forgot: I have a nasty habit documenting all my comments.

 

[Darren in NC]

...it does not matter where, nor even if, the actual wrecks had been located..

I think you haven't been on this forum long enough to understand some of the guys here, seeker. What they have been trying to tell you is they don't care what the law says. They choose to be pirates. If they find it, they aren't going to proclaim it to Spain, lawyers, you, Tnet or anyone else. They will just take the goodies and do as they please. You seem to keep bringing up the rulings and decisions. Pirates don't care about those matters.

What's interesting is that the very legislation put in place to keep pirates away does the exact opposite. It creates more pirates. People who would have otherwise shared their finds gladly with museums and public exhibitions will now keep quiet. No one will ever see these artifacts.

So stop trying to push that you're correct, and just know you have pirates in your midst.

 

[seekerGH]

I see.

Be careful, last I heard they hang pirates.

 

[Jolly Mon]

Another good example illustrating some of the points raised here is Queen Anne's Revenge, Blackbeard's flagship found outside of Beaufort Inlet, NC. At first only tentatively identified, she was not claimed as a sovereign vessel by any nation. So, despite the fact that at least 30 cannon have been discovered at the site, she is not a "sunken military craft". (As an aside, it would be fascinating to know what would have transpired if the wreck had been claimed as sovereign by another nation).

Title to the wreck lies with the State of North Carolina under the Abandoned Shipwreck Act of 1987.

In an effort to play above board, the wreck's discoverers signed an agreement with the state to retain rights to images and potential reproductions of the wreck's artifacts. One can understand the motive here...not being a commodity wreck, very little monetary treasure is associated with the site. This would have seemed a very good way for the discoverers to monetize the site and pay for the undoubted long, hard, expensive work they carried out in order to make a stupendously important historical discovery.

The result??

The state archeologists almost immediately began violating the terms of the agreement. One would have thought the archaeologists would have been happy with the "pure science" associated with the excavation...but these cats LOVE to get face-time in the press. As far as I know, the case is still in Federal court with the discoverers suing the state for, I believe 8 million dollars. The taxpayers are liable to get stuck paying an 8 million dollar tab due to the vanity of a handful of self-righteous archaeologists. And it will be completely justified

 

[seekerGH]

Interesting reading. Intersal, Inc.


The Company’s research indicates that when QAR and Adventure became stranded in June 1718, the pirates had sufficient opportunity to unload most, if not all, of the valuables aboard before abandoning the two vessels. The Company therefore concluded that there was little, if any, possibility of making sufficient profit to justify the expenditure - estimated at over five million dollars - that would be required to fully excavate and conserve all the artifacts recovered from the QAR site. After discussions with the DCR, the Company agreed to relinquish its rights to any QAR artifacts, thus absolving the Company of the financial responsibility associated with the discovery.


Have always been curious what happened with Odyssey Marine Exploration.

 

[Jolly Mon]

Interesting reading. Intersal, Inc.


The Company’s research indicates that when QAR and Adventure became stranded in June 1718, the pirates had sufficient opportunity to unload most, if not all, of the valuables aboard before abandoning the two vessels. The Company therefore concluded that there was little, if any, possibility of making sufficient profit to justify the expenditure - estimated at over five million dollars - that would be required to fully excavate and conserve all the artifacts recovered from the QAR site. After discussions with the DCR, the Company agreed to relinquish its rights to any QAR artifacts, thus absolving the Company of the financial responsibility associated with the discovery.


Have always been curious what happened with Odyssey Marine Exploration.

Try Google. It's this new-fangled search engine thingy.

 

[seekerGH]

I see that as always, there is always one in the bunch that needs things spelled out for them.

What happened with Odyssey and Intersal?

The area covered by this permit and arrest is located near Odyssey’s current “Firefly” project, which was acquired by Odyssey from BDJ Discovery Group in 2007 and includes one arrested site that has already produced a small number of gold and silver artifacts. This new Intersal site and permit area may also be related to the high-value, Colonial-era merchant vessel believed to be located in the area. The agreements with BDJ and Intersal are similar but separate and the areas do not overlap

pr172

 

[Jolly Mon]

I see that as always, there is always one in the bunch that needs things spelled out for them.

What happened with Odyssey and Intersal?

The area covered by this permit and arrest is located near Odyssey’s current “Firefly” project, which was acquired by Odyssey from BDJ Discovery Group in 2007 and includes one arrested site that has already produced a small number of gold and silver artifacts. This new Intersal site and permit area may also be related to the high-value, Colonial-era merchant vessel believed to be located in the area. The agreements with BDJ and Intersal are similar but separate and the areas do not overlap

pr172

The original question was fairly broad. I smell a fisherman.

 

[seekerGH]

So now that you have had the question explained to you, this is your response?

What you do with fisherman is your own business.

Back on subject, the link shows that there were several wrecks from Interstal, BDJ, and Odyssey in the same area as the QAR. The BDJ/Odyssey site produced gold and silver artifacts. What happened to all of these sites?

A trail of eighteenth century debris appears to start about a mile offshore in 22 feet of water at Maria, and then runs NNE along the Maria/007 axis, heading toward shore. Further shoreward along the trail, Company divers located five additional wooden stock anchors, a wooden and leather bilge pump piston with connecting rod, an iron cooking pot, and dozens of other smaller eighteenth century artifacts and encrusted objects. By the end of 2004, Company vessels and divers had checked out more than ninety percent of the trail as they followed a veritable graveyard of thousands of eighteenth century artifacts shoreward. In 2004, the team was working in less than ten feet of water, within three hundred feet of the beach.
2005-2008
In early 2005 Intersal founder and president Philip Masters was diagnosed with Melanoma. Search operations were suspended, and Intersal concentrated on maintaining its El Salvador permit through continued work with the QAR Project. After more than two years of chemotherapy and other treatment, Philip Masters passed away in August of 2007.
In 2008 Intersal named David Reeder to be the new President and CEO of Intersal. John Masters continues as Director of Operations and is now principal shareholder of Intersal.
2009 Survey with Odyssey Marine Exploration (OMEX)
In 2008 Intersal and OMEX signed a Partnership Agreement, terms of which gave OMEX a percentage of any coins recovered and sold. Under the Partnership Agreement Intersal and OMEX conducted State-of-the-art Magnetometer and Side-scan survey operations in 2009.
Details of the Survey system and results form part of the Intersal 2009 Yearly Report to DCR (Attachment 1).
Due to independent business concerns, Intersal and OMEX signed a Separation Agreement in March of 2010, to void the previous agreement and terminate the Partnership. By the terms of the Separation Agreement, OMEX will receive a conditional 3.5% royalty from Intersal’s sale of any coins recovered from the Survey Area. All items required from OMEX under the terms of the Separation Agreement have been received, and the Intersal/OMEX partnership has officially been terminated.

 

[Jolly Mon]

So now that you have had the question explained to you, this is your response?

What you do with fisherman is your own business.

Back on subject, the link shows that there were several wrecks from Interstal, BDJ, and Odyssey in the same area as the QAR. The BDJ/Odyssey site produced gold and silver artifacts. What happened to all of these sites?

A trail of eighteenth century debris appears to start about a mile offshore in 22 feet of water at Maria, and then runs NNE along the Maria/007 axis, heading toward shore. Further shoreward along the trail, Company divers located five additional wooden stock anchors, a wooden and leather bilge pump piston with connecting rod, an iron cooking pot, and dozens of other smaller eighteenth century artifacts and encrusted objects. By the end of 2004, Company vessels and divers had checked out more than ninety percent of the trail as they followed a veritable graveyard of thousands of eighteenth century artifacts shoreward. In 2004, the team was working in less than ten feet of water, within three hundred feet of the beach.
2005-2008
In early 2005 Intersal founder and president Philip Masters was diagnosed with Melanoma. Search operations were suspended, and Intersal concentrated on maintaining its El Salvador permit through continued work with the QAR Project. After more than two years of chemotherapy and other treatment, Philip Masters passed away in August of 2007.
In 2008 Intersal named David Reeder to be the new President and CEO of Intersal. John Masters continues as Director of Operations and is now principal shareholder of Intersal.
2009 Survey with Odyssey Marine Exploration (OMEX)
In 2008 Intersal and OMEX signed a Partnership Agreement, terms of which gave OMEX a percentage of any coins recovered and sold. Under the Partnership Agreement Intersal and OMEX conducted State-of-the-art Magnetometer and Side-scan survey operations in 2009.
Details of the Survey system and results form part of the Intersal 2009 Yearly Report to DCR (Attachment 1).
Due to independent business concerns, Intersal and OMEX signed a Separation Agreement in March of 2010, to void the previous agreement and terminate the Partnership. By the terms of the Separation Agreement, OMEX will receive a conditional 3.5% royalty from Intersal’s sale of any coins recovered from the Survey Area. All items required from OMEX under the terms of the Separation Agreement have been received, and the Intersal/OMEX partnership has officially been terminated.

Golly, it sounds like "what happened to Odyssey Marine Exploration" and Intersal is fully explained by your own post.

You go Google !!!

 

[seekerGH]

Back on subject, the link shows that there were several wrecks from Interstal, BDJ, and Odyssey in the same area as the QAR. The BDJ/Odyssey site produced gold and silver artifacts. What happened to all of these sites?

Please try to follow what was written. If you do not know, then simply do not answer.

 

[bauza]

Just research and if interesting recovery.Bauza