Ships Bell - Please Help Identify

[edelson]

This bell was found on the west coast of South America (Southern Chile). It was under the ocean for many years and some of the raised inscription is very hard to read. First word of first line is JOHN with 5 or 6 letters after it. The second line is clear LONDON The third line is 1545 or 1645 with the 4 being backwards and the 5 or 6 fairly eroded.

I sent a photo to one of the British Maritime Museaums and they said it was too old for a 1800's Bell. It is 13 1/4" diameter at the bottom, 13 1/4" high and weighs 25 lbs.
It is quite similar to the Santa Maria Bell (Columbus Bell) The hole on the side seems to be from the clapper hitting and either embrittiling or wearing thin. Any thoughts on what methods could make the last word of the top line or the second letter of the date readable would be appreciated.

 

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[Mackaydon]

Can you turn the bell 1/4 turn clockwise then take another pic?
What other relics were recovered from the recovery area that might assist in the ID?
Thanks.

 

[Bramblefind]

That is really cool! Could you get a picture that is more direct on the word after "John". I keep thinking I see an "X" for the first letter (?)

I just checked quickly and I would guess you already know that Sir Francis Drake was in that area in the 1570s. One description I read said his ship "Marigold" was wrecked near there and he went on with his trip around the world on the "Pelican" aka "Golden Hind".

 

[ghost_rider]

Looks like:

John Kay
London
(date can't read)

 

[edelson]

This was the only thing brought up. There is a big anchor. The word after JOHN could start with a X, R, K or & (if this symbol was used back then) The second letter could be an A with the 3rd an N The other photos are not in the size that can be posted . My daughter is converting to jpeg and I can post later.

Thanks

 

[Bramblefind]

There is a ship "John & Anne" circa 1683-1685 listed in this index of the East India Company:


http://www.eicships.info/ships/shipdetail.asp?sid=1535

 

[SkyPirate]

nice bell

 

[edelson]

Here is one more picture. I don't think anyone can read the photos I have and come up with anymore information. Has anyone used forensic photography or other methods to bring out the faint outlines of the once raised but faint letters. How about x-ray? Thanks
I have heard there were often many ships in a fleet some of which were "throw away ships" ie not meant to return. This may be from one of those.

 

[edelson]

Bradyboy, I am not sure of your point about "why would I post this". Please tell me why I shouldn't have>

I am just looking for help from someone wiser than I. If that is you, then I would appreciate your help. If not don't take up space with unfounded accusations. And it is legit.

 

[bradyboy]

My point is
I wouldnt advertise your find as important as a bell
do your home work on the item and dont use forums if the bell is in fact legit
Im sorry, but I sort of doubt your claim on finding this bell
anyone can cast a bell
My issue is your carelessness in posting your so called find
Sorry, but just my opinion
Brady

 

[bradyboy]

Sorry folks
My last post might have been worded wrong
my point is
finding a bell on a wreck is like hitting the lottery
not sure why you would share the info on a forum
Am I wrong?
Brady

 

[72cheyenne]

Sorry folks
My last post might have been worded wrong
my point is
finding a bell on a wreck is like hitting the lottery
not sure why you would share the info on a forum
Am I wrong?
Brady

There was a ship's bell on the banner here a while back. I don't see anything wrong with posting. There is nothing the original poster said that seems "un-legit".

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,264270.0.html

Edelson, nice to finally have pictures. Seems you made an attempt at an ID two years ago.

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,106094.0.html

 

[Bramblefind]

I think you are wrong.

But I don't know how much my opinion means to you. Maybe we will get lucky and someone with a higher post count can respond.

 

[Moe (fl)]

It would be nice to get better pictures from different angles.

I agree with postings:

JOHN KAN_ (RAN, KXN)?
LONDON
1545?

 

[Breezie]

I think the name on the bell is John Randall John Randall, Esq. had been building ships for the Royal Navy at Cuckold's Point (Nelson Dockyard) and the Greenland Dock since 1755. John Brent was brought into partnership with Randall to possibly utilize his association with Gabriel Snodgrass of the East India Company to enhance the Yard's production of large merchant ships. Together, they became major contributors to Britain's maritime dominance.

Check out Vengeance, Fortitude, Sceptue, Ganges, Suffolk, Edgar and the list goes on. . .here's the website:
http://3decks.pbworks.com/British+3rd+Rates

You might want to check the date to see if it could possible be 177 _, and instead of a 'backwards 4,' it could be a 'crossed 7.'

Breezie

 

[CRUSADER]

It would be nice to get better pictures from different angles.

I agree with postings:

JOHN KAN_ (RAN, KXN)?
LONDON
1545?

If British and of that date the 'J' would be an 'I' and therefore read IOHN.

 

[DCMatt]

It would be nice to get better pictures from different angles.

I agree with postings:

JOHN KAN_ (RAN, KXN)?
LONDON
1545?

If British and of that date the 'J' would be an 'I' and therefore read IOHN.

CRUSADER makes an excellent point. English (language) use of the letter J was not common until the late 18th or early 19th century. Even then, the letters were almost indistinguishable.

Check the "New General English Dictionary" published 1768 (Google books). The words beginning with I and J are combined in the same section.

When Pierre L'enfant laid out the design of the city of Washington DC in 1791, he did not include a 'J' street between 'I' and 'K' as it was considered superfluous at the time.

DCMatt

 

[edelson]

Thanks to everyone for the constructive input. Cheyenne is correct I did post 2 years ago, but no picture for the very reason bradyboy sort of stated "secrecy" .

I do not think it is, in anyway, a 7. It is a rounded bottom thus a 5,6 or 8. some photo shopping and different color baths done by a professional photographer friend came up with 1555 which cast doubt on my backwards 4 thought for the 1545 theory.

I have correctly or incorrectly discounted the 8 because of the comment of the British Museum Cureator based on the evolution of the bell.

The J could be an I because the hook (part going to the left at the bottom)is quite small and there are numerous areas where the raised lettering is extremly faint or missing from erosion since the letters are far from uniform. . I can see nothing going to the right at the bottom of the J or I.
I read on another earlier post that bell on ships were perhaps smaller than this but since it was recovered about 1/2 mile offshore close to some nasty subsurface rocks (5' to 8' submurged) I thought ship.

I have taken some more close up photos and will post soon.

 

[Breezie]

The numbers on this bell do not necessarily mean the date. Numbers were also embossed on bells to denote production. It could be like a limited edition art print, for example 15/45, which would be the 15th bell produced out of 45. http://landandseacollection.com/id239.html

I think it is logical that it is a ship's bell since it was found off the southern coast of Chile, and it is marked London. That's alot of traveling around in the ocean for a 25 lb. bell if it were not connected to a ship.

Breezie

 

[Tricia]

Maybe a whaler?

There was a whaling ship called "John" which was wrecked in 1830. One called the "Henry and John" from 1758. Also found a "John Barry" from 1834.

To me the lettering looks like "John KANsomething" with the date 1865.

Good luck but I agree, the ship's bell once retrieved from the depths is a precious thing. Old legends say you can call the perished sailors soul's back to duty by ringing the retrieved bell of a wrecked ship after it has sunk.

Don't do that. If a sailor perished in service to a ship, they deserve peace.