SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS? *SOLVED*TY CANNONBALLGUY!

[HEAVYMETALNUT]

needed to ID this casing.no mark on bottom.22 casing is next to it for size reference.civil war sharps maybe? no clue on this area of relics.please help!

 

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[duggap]

Re: SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS?

If I am not mistaken the Sharps were paper cartridge. All civilwar casings were rim fire and there were several of different calibre. I kind of lean toward modern only because of the size. Looks like a .38 calibre or there abouts. But Smith & Wesson had a metal cartridge that was a smaller calibre during the war. Just kind of hard to call. Regards

 

[Dave44]

Re: SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS?

It could be a sharps,, can you give us measurements? I have found alot of drops and the rim looks thick on that one though.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Re: SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS?

Without precise measurements for your mystery casing, all I can do is a "best guess" ...though the .22 casing in the photo helps. Comparing its proportions to your mystery casing, yours appears to be a US civil war era .52-caliber Spencer casing. That Spencer casing's typical dimensions are:
base-rim (a.k.a. head) diameter approximately .635"
tube diameter approximately .560"
length (two versions) approximately .88" and .93"

Or, your casing could be a US civil war era .50 Warner ...whose tube-diamter is .515-inch. Sorry, I don't have data on the Warner's casing-length nor head-diameter.

Please check your mystery casing's exact measurements and tell us whether they match a .52 Spencer, or not.

 

[HEAVYMETALNUT]

Re: SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS?

sorry fellas i dont have vernier calipers for measuring.any other suggestions?

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Re: SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS?

You can lay the various parts flat up against a ruler, and make your best estimate. By the way, the price of very good quality Digital Calipers has dropped enormously ...they are currently available from tool-suppliers like Harbor Freight Tools for $15-to-$19. They're worth the $19 for every digger to own, because you will find stuff which needs precise measuring for accurate identification. Your maybe-a-Spencer cartridge casing is an example of that ...but there are others, such as buttons, coins, and bullets.

 

[BosnMate]

Re: SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS?

I was also going to guess Spencer. Custer's Michigan Brigade was armed with Spencers, arguably one of the main reasons his outfit did so well.

 

[HEAVYMETALNUT]

Re: SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS?

You can lay the various parts flat up against a ruler, and make your best estimate. By the way, the price of very good quality Digital Calipers has dropped enormously ...they are currently available from tool-suppliers like Harbor Freight Tools for $15-to-$19. They're worth the $19 for every digger to own, because you will find stuff which needs precise measuring for accurate identification. Your maybe-a-Spencer cartridge casing is an example of that ...but there are others, such as buttons, coins, and bullets.

ok I did the best with what i have.hope this helps you or me

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Re: SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS?

Heavymetalnut, you did a good job of putting the casing "tightly" against a ruler/tape-measure while simultaneously shooting a photo. I know that 2-part process isn't easy to do simultaneously. Thank you. It enables me to see the "precise" measurements that are necessary to ID your mystery-casing.

Your new photos show that we can exclude the Spencer possibility, because your casing's head (base-rim) diameter and tube-diameter are smaller than a Spencer casing at those parts (.635" head and .560" tube).

Your casing's tube-diameter (shown in one of your new photos) seems to match up with a .50-caliber Warner casing's tube-diameter, which is .515"-to-.525" ...and is the appropriate tube-diameter to accept a .50-caliber bullet.

Lastly... because your mystery-casing is clearly a rimfire-primer casing for a .50-caliber bullet, I did a very thorough search through the Cartridge Collectors' Database. Its data contains no other .50-caliber casing which is a match for yours -- so by the process of elimination, it seems your casing is a US civil war era Warner .50-caliber Carbine cartridge casing.

 

[HEAVYMETALNUT]

Re: SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS?

Heavymetalnut, you did a good job of putting the casing "tightly" against a ruler/tape-measure while simultaneously shooting a photo. I know that 2-part process isn't easy to do simultaneously. Thank you. It enables me to see the "precise" measurements that are necessary to ID your mystery-casing.

Your new photos show that we can exclude the Spencer possibility, because your casing's head (base-rim) diameter and tube-diameter are smaller than a Spencer casing at those parts (.635" head and .560" tube).

Your casing's tube-diameter (shown in one of your new photos) seems to match up with a .50-caliber Warner casing's tube-diameter, which is .515"-to-.525" ...and is the appropriate tube-diameter to accept a .50-caliber bullet.

Lastly... because your mystery-casing is clearly a rimfire-primer casing for a .50-caliber bullet, I did a very thorough search through the Cartridge Collectors' Database. Its data contains no other .50-caliber casing which is a match for yours -- so by the process of elimination, it seems your casing is a US civil war era Warner .50-caliber Carbine cartridge casing.

sweet! thank you so much for your time & researching! Merry Christmas!

 

[Monty]

Re: SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS?

I've been sitting here watching this post evolve. I had an idea what it was, but I am a shooting nut and I like to see how others come to the conclusion as to what a cartridge case really is. I agree, a warner .50 carbine. I would like to note that I have posted several times outlining what is needed to positively ID a cartridge case or bullet , but it gets shuffled down to the bottom of the heap and no one really has a chance to read it. Mostly it takes really close measurements and secondly it takes really good pictures of the cartridge case from several angles. Measurements should be taken of the width of the rim, then the width of the case just ahead of the rim. Secondly a measurement needs to be taken of the open area at the open end where the buillet sits. Some cases are straight while others can be slightly narrower at the neck than at the base, while yet others are tapered at the case mouth and will have a shoulder. A measurement of the length of the entire case should be taken.

With bullets the length and width of the bullet should be measured. The weight is often a primary clue as to the ID of the bullet. Weight is commonly taken in grains and there are any number of conversion tables available on line to convert from ounces or grams to grains. Good photos should be made of the nose of the bullet as well as the width and the length. The composition of the bullet is sometimes critical and should be described as closely as can be determined. Check all components with a magnet as some cases and even bullets have been made of iron or steel during war times. Any small clue you can provide may be critical in making a good identification.If yhou do all this, I believe every bullet or cartridge case can be ID'd unless of course it is too heavily damaged. But even then we sometimes get lucky.

 

[HEAVYMETALNUT]

Re: SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS?

ok another forum member just threw in a monkey wrench into the ID of this.below is what he said....

Hey Dave,

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with the person who wrote you with the .50 Warner Carbine round identification.

The rim size is off and the .50 Warner was a tapered case. Yours looks to be a straight case. Without calipers, it is impossible for me to tell from the pics, but doing a little math, I came up with these numbers for your bullet case. This is assuming that your casing is in perfect/near perfect condition and the neck opening is still completely round

Rim - .53
Neck - .453
Length - .875

The closest bullet casing that I can find that match my very unscientific measurements is the .44 Henry Flat Long. The measurements for it are:

Rim - .518 (I'm off by .012)
Neck - .445 (I'm off by .008)
Length - .895 (I'm off by .020) - one source says .875

The rim is almost 5/8 inch on the .50 Warner and the neck opening is over 1/2 inch. Your images look to be under 1/2 inch for the neck and nowhere near 5/8 inch on the rim.

I am still saying that it is a .44 Long Henry casing made by the New Haven Arms Company (before Winchester was around). That being said, I would give it a tenative date of 1859/60-1865/66 (depending on sources).

It will definately be a CW era round although I don't believe this one is CW related. The .44 Henry was never issued to the Army, as best as I can tell. Unless it was found at a training/base camp or mustering point, I would guess it is probably a hunter's casing.

The .44 Henry (Winchester Repeater) is known as the rifle that "won" the West. I think it is one of the most important rounds ever designed and the rifle is one of the most important rifles, if not the most important rifle ever designed.

It is a great find Dave. Congratulations.
Doug

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Re: SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS?

First... the .50-caliber Warner is not a "necked" casing. If you want proof about that, the book titled "A Handbook of Civil War Bullets & Cartridges" (By James E. Thomas & Dean S. Thomas) contains an ID-photo showing a complete .50 Warner cartridge, and the casing has no "neck."

Your first set of photos shows a .22 casing. In those photos, your casing appears to be significantly wider than "double" the .22 casing's width. Also, when laid up against the tape-measure in your second photo-set, the tube's top appears to be very close to a half-inch wide. Those are the two reasons I had to assume it is a .50-caliber casing, and why I researched .50-caliber casings.

I did notice that its base-rim measurement (next to the tape-measure) looked a bit smaller than a Warner ...but as mentioned, other factors led me to believe it was about .5-inch ...and that is why I ended my previous post with the statement "By the process of elimination, it seems your casing is a Warner ..."

The main problem is that your casing's "mouth" is bent out-of-round. That is what makes accurately guessing its original diameter unusually difficult, even with the tape-measure photos. So, the place to get an accurate measurement of the tube's diameter is where it is completely undamaged, a bit above the casing's base-rim. But, the only way to get a truly accurate measurement of your casing's tube-diameter is with some Calipers ...which is why my previous post urged you to spend the $19 to buy some, at a Harbor Freight Tools store or at its website. Cost is $11.99 + 6.99 postage.
http://www.harborfreight.com/4-inch-digital-caliper-47256.html

About the .44 Henry possibility mentioned by Doug:
Although the .44 Henry Repeating Rifle/Carbine was indeed never officially issued to troops by the US Government, during the civil war it was purchased by very significant numbers of troops. Thus, .44 Henry cartridges turn up in large quantities at battles from Virginia to Georgia. (I've dug many-many of them in both states.)

So, like I did to get the .52-caliber Spencer casing measurements I gave you in my previous post, I used my digital calipers to check about a dozen civil-war-battlesite-dug .44 Henry casings in my personal relic collection. They consistently measure:
.445 - tube diameter
.515 - base-rim diameter
.850 - casing length (unfired)

If you are ever willing to buy (or borrow) the $12 digital calipers, that info will tell you whether or not your casing is a .44 Henry casing.

 

[fyrffytr1]

Re: SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS?

I bought my digital calipers from Lowes for under $20.00. Now, all I have to do is find something so I can measure it!

 

[HEAVYMETALNUT]

Re: SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS?

i guess i need to splurge on a set of calipers then to end this debate

 

[Monty]

Re: SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS?

Now you see why I wrote my little dissertation about how to get a good Id on a cartridge case or bullet. There are so many variables it bogles the mind once a person gets into studying this sort of thing. Monty

 

[HEAVYMETALNUT]

Re: SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS?

last response to cannonballguy from other forum member....


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In response...

First off, I agree, the .50 Warner was not a necked case, it was a tapered case with the base being 0.030" larger than the neck. The images posted of the case in question looks to me to be a straight case and not a tapered case. Unless I am mis-seeing what is actually there, I don't see that the rim of the case in question is anywhere near the 0.660" that the Warner case is.

The best guess that I gave was based on decimal conversions of the represented fractions from the tape. I stated to Dave that they were only unscientific guesses and my tenative id was based on a perfect/near perfect case the was still "in round".

Personally, I hope you are correct that it is a .50 Warner Carbine case as I am sure that is much more rare than a .44 henry case.

Once again, I agree with you that the .44 Henry was used by troops in the Civil War. My understanding though, is it saw very limited use during the war. One, it was not as powerful as many of the other rifles. Two, as best as I know, it was never issued by the Government to any troops. There were around 2.2 million Union Army Troops during the duration of the Civil War. From it's inception to the making of the Winchester Model 1866, there was only around 14,000, .44 Henry rifles made in total. If all 14,000 Henry rifles were put into use during the Civil War, and each rifle was used by three different soldiers as their main rifle, with the previous owner being killed or wounded, that would still be less than 3% of all Union soldiers who used a Henry. From what I have read, it was a point of pride for a Union soldier to own a Henry because so few had them. If a person found a battle site where even one Henry rifle was used, I could see a large number of casings being found. The Henry rifle was able to fire 15 rounds in about as many seconds.

Dave asked if it was Civil War era and if it was military or civilian. I stated that I thought it was definately CW era but civilian in nature. It was found in New England, not a battlefield state. I am guessing that it was found in a rural area, which would also make me believe that it was a hunter's case. Unfortunately, with an isolated find, with no supporting "context" it will be all but impossible to say for certain the history of the case.

I am not sure who I am responding to. I am in no way trying to get into a pi$$ing match with anyone. I am in no way an expert on bullets, bullet cases or shotshells. I am just trying to help a friend get a correct id on a find of theirs. If I offened anyone, I am sorry.

Doug

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Re: SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS?

Heavymetalnut, hopefully your friend Doug will see this reply.

Doug, like you, I have no desire whatsoever to get into a "pi$$ing match" with anyone. Actually, I appreciate your input in the quest for the ID of Heavymetalnut's casing. THAT is my only goal.

The first photo-set posted by Heavymetalnut included a .22 casing as a size-reference for his casing, because he did not measure it. I'll repost one of those photos in this reply, so readers won't have to scroll way up the page to see it. Two times 22 is 44, and in those photos, his mystery-casing appears to be noticeably MORE than twice the .22 casing's diameter. That caused me to disregard his casing from being a .44 casing. Also, in his tape-measure photos, the tube's opening appears to be almost exactly .50-inch. So, based on that and the size-comparison with the .22 casing, I researched for .50-caliber casings which closely resembled his mystery-casing. By that process of elimination, the only candidate seemed to be the .50 Warner.

But, as noted later, his casing's tube-opening has been bent out-of-round. Also, going by the base-rim being noticeably smaller than it should be for a .50-caliber casing, the tube-opening photo and the photos showing a .22 casing for size-reference are NOT reliable for ascertaining his casing's actual size. I should have known better than to rely on those photos ...and instead, insisted on measuring the tube's diameter with calipers. I will not make that mistake again, and I apologize to the forum's readers for it.

Doug, since the tube-opening photo (with tape-measure) is unreliable, but the photo of the (undamaged) base-rim IS reliable, I think there's a good possiblity that you are correct, Heavymetalnut's casing is a .44 Henry. I thank you publicly for suggesting it. When he puts calipers on that casing and reports the tube's diamter, we'll know what we needed to know all along.

I'll close this post with a different subject. Although there were almost certainly fewer than 5,000 Henry Repeaters used in the civil war, the fact that they were "16-shooters" caused multi-multi-thousands of .44 Henry casings to be left on civil war battlefields. Where they were used (which seems to be at every "major" battle from 1863 to 1865), their casings are found in significant quantities. Thus, an excavated civil war .44 Henry Rimfire casing is not viewed by relic-diggers as a rare relic. I own several hundred of them. At a civil war relic show, they sell for about $5. Also, a complete (with lead bullet) battlefield-dug .44 Henry Rimfire cartridge is fairly common, selling for about $15-to-$20.

 

[Monty]

Re: SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS?

And you might add that not all Henrys you find for sale are civil war related. Monty

 

[metaldetector101]

Re: SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS?

My guess is a spencers caseing