She was only 3 days old.

[Bigcypresshunter]

I posted this here last year, but have yet to positively ID. We have some new members and I could get some new thoughts. It is silver and very THIN like a tag and the size of a quarter. Its hand engraved on the front in Old English copperplate script:

Jo-Ann L. Hall
12-30-43--1-2-44

There are some official looking numbers on the back: G-1506.

The back is also hand engraved. The numbers may coincide with a US military grave plot but what cemetery?... What century?

Plot G- Row 15- Grave 06?

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

How to Research for Treasure Hunting and Metal Detecting From Lead Generation to Vetting - Grab it through Amazon!

[Doubter in MD]

I think the biggest elephant in the room is why is one side in script and the other side hand chiseled? Or perhaps the back is not hand chiseled but since the font change the striking pattern changed. IMO...both sides must have been done at the same time...

I agree. The front is the birth and death date and the back could possibly be a reference to the Bible Word numbered as 1506 as identified in Strong's Concordance.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Agony and Death on a Gold Rush Steamer: The Disastrous Sinking of the Side-Wheeler Yankee Blade - Grab it through Amazon!

[Charlie P. (NY)]

IMO, since it's confirmed silver, that rules out a lot of theories. I still don't get the Tie mark, doesn't make sense to me, but I'm learning a lot.

I can help with that. It's likely just part of the H. Engraving and calligraphy don't have to occupy set widths like printer fonts do.

 

[G.I.B.]

I'm unable to find any name LaHall, LaHull, La Hull, La Hall in any data base. Nobody seems to have that as a family name.

The only way is to ignore the 'La.' And what good is that? There are zillion's of Hall's and Hull's out there.

Somebody somewhere had to have used the name La Hall, but it doesn't exist.

That is why I'm having difficulty with it being La.

If it was a grave marker, the family name would pop up somewhere.

If it was a personal meaning love token, it wouldn't mean anything to anyone else. I sent, and have written GMHP to my wife. She knows what it means, but a handful of strangers in 100 years won't have a clue.

The G-1506 could be anything personal to them. It may have no common meaning.

My brain hurts, needs more IPA.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I googled G-1506 and this was the first hit. https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1506

I have no idea what this website is exactly since I only skimmed it. But the outline of biblical usage? for this (definition?) is pure, sincere, unsullied. That certainly describes a newborn infant.

Now thats interesting!

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I think the biggest elephant in the room is why is one side in script and the other side hand chiseled? Or perhaps the back is not hand chiseled but since the font change the striking pattern changed. IMO...both sides must have been done at the same time...

Someone took a lot of time to engrave or hand chisel the numbers on the backside and they are straight, evenly spaced and centered well. They must have meaning.

They are definitely not machine stamped.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I'm unable to find any name LaHall, LaHull, La Hull, La Hall in any data base. Nobody seems to have that as a family name.

The only way is to ignore the 'La.' And what good is that? There are zillion's of Hall's and Hull's out there.

Somebody somewhere had to have used the name La Hall, but it doesn't exist.

That is why I'm having difficulty with it being La.

If it was a grave marker, the family name would pop up somewhere.

If it was a personal meaning love token, it wouldn't mean anything to anyone else. I sent, and have written GMHP to my wife. She knows what it means, but a handful of strangers in 100 years won't have a clue.

The G-1506 could be anything personal to them. It has may have no common meaning.

My brain hurts, needs more IPA.

Because there is a clear period, I still think its just an initial L. I think its a fancy L with loops on each side. As Charlie says there are many fancy variations. However I have not ruled out the tie theory completely but its on the back burner.

Look at the second n in Ann. You will see that the middle stroke of the n is missing or worn off. I think its the same with the a in Hall. I don't think its a u because I can actually see the stroke in thea start to curve when I looked with a magnifying loupe. And I think part of the loop on the L is also worn off.



I think we have to search without the middle initial because the middle initial may not be marked on the gravestone. Thanks for searching different possibilities.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

IMO, since it's confirmed silver, that rules out a lot of theories. I still don't get the Tie mark, doesn't make sense to me, but I'm learning a lot.

Next hummmm... is why on the beach? If it's a crematory tag, it wouldn't be silver. If it was silver, and on the Urn, the parents should/would have kept it. Why would you throw that into the sea?

If it's a memory tag, I can get it being silver, but the numbers on the back cloud the issue.

If it's for a grave site, why would it be at the beach, unless Mom was wearing it as a necklace or piece of jewelry.

Just thinking out loud here-

... and doing a lot of head scratching.

Definitely silver; the diameter of a US quarter but thinner and the reeded edge is more like a Reale not a US quarter. Stainless steel cremation tags are found washed up on the beach by TN members so apparently tags are often tossed in the water with the ashes or burial at sea. The hole is either for a chain or a nail.

In 1844, there was a very small failed colony near the beach, basically a US Army fort with a Hall listed ; in 1944 US Navy training with live bombs, and today its a public beach so, yes, I think somebody lost it, on the beach, in the water, or up in the dunes, where it may have washed out with severe hi tides.. Whether it was on a chain, urn or coffin, I dont know. 2 confirmed shipwrecks directly offshore and I found artifacts (brass spikes) from these shipwrecks within the same ten feet on the same day after the hurricane. If I had my PI Unit I would have found more items. As I recall I was using a cheap poor Radio Shack Unit with a tree branch for a rod that wouldnt go 2 inches deep and we were not even allowed on the beach during the evacuation so we had to work fast and keep moving and keep the MD hidden...

 

[trikikiwi]

Now thats interesting!

It is indeed interesting and I think possibly spot on, given the context of the disc as a keepsake of a child lost at the age of three days old.

I must admit to finding that same link in my searching but I didn't then appreciate the significance.

Also, in my researching the possibility of the G-1506 indicating a ship or plane designation, as I previously suggested, it appears unlikely to be related to any USA military organisation's vessels of either nature.

 

[G.I.B.]

Because there is a clear period, I still think its just an initial L. I think its a fancy L with loops on each side. As Charlie says there are many fancy variations.

I think we have to search without the middle initial because the middle initial may not be marked on the gravestone. Thanks for searching different possibilities.

So, you are saying that the middle initial is L and there is no 'a' next to it. The small 'a' is instead a massive period or an extraneous loop?

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

My middle name is "Lee" and the "L" can be fancied up to include a loop.

 

[Scrappy]

I would just take a second to point out that the original intent of my "most misleading post ever on TNet" was that it would be unlikely for a baby to survive and then die in the 1700 and 1800s for three days and much more probable in the 1900s. So, thanks to NH(or should I say his pediatrician wife who laughed at me), Breezie, and my good buddy RJC for finding relative data that has leads to a death in the 1900s. I apologize to TNET for being dumber then a box of rocks, I apologize to KIWI-Triki for attacking the credibility of the site, and most importantly, I apologize to Breezie for being alive. I wish my existence was not such a bain to all of you. C-Train...OUT!

I am really enjoying this thread about you Crispin.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

So, you are saying that the middle initial is L and there is no 'a' next to it. The small 'a' is instead a massive period or an extraneous loop?

Yes exactly.

ADDED: Its part of the L. The period is after the L.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

My middle name is "Lee" and the "L" can be fancied up to include a loop.
View attachment 1201055

View attachment 1201056

View attachment 1201057

View attachment 1201058

Thanks Charlie. I studied very fancy Ls and almost every one had a loop on each end. I also think the tie is just part of the fancy loop.

The only letter in question GIB is the J but Im convinced it is a J because its one of the few letters below the line. The engraver made the second letter o way above to show that is is indeed a J. Here is a good link on cursive script.. Follow the strokes. Mastering Calligraphy: How to Write in Cursive Script - Tuts+ Design & Illustration Article



When compared with the second letter o the first letter must be a J. And there is no doubt the other uppercase letters are A , L., and H. If you trace out the L., you will see that you are not forming an a or an o. Its just not the proper way to write an a or o in cursive script. Follow the blue arrows and think back to your days in Elementary school.


I think I finally have an explanation for the very small line after the first o at about 2 o'clock.. It had been bugging me. Its part of the loop on the o.

 

[Crispin]

I am really enjoying this thread about you Crispin.

This statement perplexes me, can you expound on it please?

 

[Crispin]

My friends,
If you would so indulge me but for a few moments I would like to take a moment to apply the scientific process and the null hypothesis to everything that has been posted on here. Whilest doing so I will be quoting opinions and information gathered from many of you. It is not my intent to not give credit to all of you who have had contributed; however, I feel it would be cumbersome to try to separate and assign credit (or merit) without forgetting some or disrespecting others. Lest it be said that many have given thought, research, time, and brain cells to this effort. May we begin:

Null hypothesis: Bigcypress hunter possesses nothing other then a piece of junk.

Evidence to the contrary:
1. It has tested positive for silver.
2. It is the exact same size as a silver quarter.
3. It has a hole in the top the may have attached it to something.
4. The dates marked on what will be called the front of the object are largely agreed up.
4a. These dates are ordered in American calendar where it goes day, month year vs. European which goes month, day, year.
5. We have two different types of engraving on the front and on the back.
6. The observe of the object is clearly defined without argument and clearly in a different script then the front.
7. The time of locating the object, the depth of locating the object, and the location of finding the object has been posted with no objections.
8. History of location has been posted to area of finding without objection.

If I am forgetting something then please add in stated facts that have been proven within a confidence interval of 95%.

Let us assume that the null hypothesis applies to everything that has posted other then the first eight points, plus addendum and assume they have failed to reject the null hypothesis.
In Layman's terms: we don't know squat.

I propose, in solving this mystery, that we move forward with data that is consistent only in rejecting the null hypothesis, leave all other theories open to speculation, stop refuting other theories that people propose, stop insulting people and then having others like their posts, and keep all other theories as options until we can rule them out with great certainty.

I feel this is not only an exercise in joining great minds around the world; but also, an opportunity for us to work work together to protect the integrity of TNET and allow new opinions to be based on merit and research.

Ladies and Gentlemen,
Good Evening

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Oh, but there's so much more we're assuming:

9. The piece was complete and accepted as intended. (That is, not a discard or a piece with a mistake).
10. The design was a finished effort and not just a practice piece for a young engraver (who may have lost a child or sibling). It was common to use coins for practice material.
11. Both the obverse and reverse are significant.
12. Both sides were done by the same person.
13. Both sides were completed at te same time more or less.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

My friends,
If you would so indulge me but for a few moments I would like to take a moment to apply the scientific process and the null hypothesis to everything that has been posted on here. Whilest doing so I will be quoting opinions and information gathered from many of you. It is not my intent to not give credit to all of you who have had contributed; however, I feel it would be cumbersome to try to separate and assign credit (or merit) without forgetting some or disrespecting others. Lest it be said that many have given thought, research, time, and brain cells to this effort. May we begin:

Null hypothesis: Bigcypress hunter possesses nothing other then a piece of junk.

Evidence to the contrary:
1. It has tested positive for silver.
2. It is the exact same size as a silver quarter.
3. It has a hole in the top the may have attached it to something.
4. The dates marked on what will be called the front of the object are largely agreed up.
4a. These dates are ordered in American calendar where it goes day, month year vs. European which goes month, day, year.
5. We have two different types of engraving on the front and on the back.
6. The observe of the object is clearly defined without argument and clearly in a different script then the front.
7. The time of locating the object, the depth of locating the object, and the location of finding the object has been posted with no objections.
8. History of location has been posted to area of finding without objection.

If I am forgetting something then please add in stated facts that have been proven within a confidence interval of 95%.

Let us assume that the null hypothesis applies to everything that has posted other then the first eight points, plus addendum and assume they have failed to reject the null hypothesis.
In Layman's terms: we don't know squat.

I propose, in solving this mystery, that we move forward with data that is consistent only in rejecting the null hypothesis, leave all other theories open to speculation, stop refuting other theories that people propose, stop insulting people and then having others like their posts, and keep all other theories as options until we can rule them out with great certainty.

I feel this is not only an exercise in joining great minds around the world; but also, an opportunity for us to work work together to protect the integrity of TNET and allow new opinions to be based on merit and research.

Ladies and Gentlemen,
Good Evening

The process that has always worked (and still does) was to refute the ideas that don't fit. Example:Someone posted that it wasn't an uppercase A. So of course, I had to refute it and I apologized for insulting that person. Wild uneducated guesses are fine but for what purpose would it do to leave this theory open as an option?

I think we are close to IDing it. Its most likely a mothers memento from her lost child but I wont mark it solved until I have found the grave or a relative. With a complete name, birth date, death date, it should be possible depending upon the century. I don't believe anyone is being insulted. Sometimes there is no nice way to tell somebody they are wrong. And sometimes that person is unable to comprehend why they are wrong, even when I explain it with pictures.

The monetary or historical value of this item is very little (unless it came from US Army Sergeant Hall from the lost colony). Its just a conversation piece, I realize this. It would never have gathered so much attention if not found among brass nails on the Treasure Coast, after 2 hurricanes, near the failed colony, the World War 2 tracking station, 2 shipwrecks offshore,... this all adds to the mystery.

Null hypothesis: Bigcypress hunter possesses nothing other then a piece of junk.

I understand the null hypothesis, because you explained it to me. But because this item
has man-made legible engraving, you cant say its junk, such as what you might do with a fire nugget. This item is not burned or destroyed and its not illegible.. We learned long ago its not nice to call someones item junk unless it burned/melted beyond recognition. So your null hypothesis of "junk" has already been rejected before we even start to attempt the ID.

But since we are having so much trouble at TreasureNet making IDs, and I have surely made at least 1000 myself, it was really super of you to tell us what we are doing wrong. Im sorry crispin I couldn't resist. I don't think I'm better than anybody else but how many correct IDs have you made?

I like your 1-8. I agree with them all. I think we can also agree with 9-13, its not a practice piece, its a finished product.. We may know squat in layman's terms about the owner or purpose but we know its NOT junk. Its dated, it has a name artistically engraved and this item was important to somebody. And its at least 70 years old. How can you assume its junk?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Null hypothesis: Bigcypress hunter possesses nothing other then a piece of junk.

Duly noted but the null hypothesis has been rejected with above 95% certainty.

 

[Crispin]

Just call me "Black Swan"

 

[Crispin]

I think the Scientific Method is worth trying here. So far you have not proved anything. All you have done is look at a coin and make theories with no facts to back them up. I thought my 1-8 outline was a good start. As for how many "IDs" have I made? Who cares, how is that at all relevant to this particular piece? Why don't you ask me a more important question like "How many lives have I saved?" You know what, if you were my patient you would care less how many lives I have saved if I was not doing a good job saving yours!