Selling valuable coins???

[Iron Patch]

Try to not think any lesser of the person until you find out the entire story... There have been many well-meaning collectors who have unintentionaly acquired fakes or they may have been given to them by relatives.... Arm yourself with knowledge and use it tactfully....

Alan

I see it in coins on a small scale, but on a much higher scale for watches. If you think the topic of fake coins comes up a lot on this forum, you wouldn't believe how many topics about fakes come up on a watch forum. I have seen people taken for watches ranging in price from $100 to several thousands, and it's brutal. The strangest situation I seen was an authorized dealer who actually took in a fake as a trade in, and sold it to a customer. The customer posted it, and just like this forum with coins, it wasn't long before someone wrote to fill him in on what he had. Of course the dealer gave a full refund, and felt pretty stupid at being take himself. On the same topic there's a good hour show that has been running on counterfeit items and it just ran again tonight as a matter of fact. You name it, and those b____s are making fakes. Everything from coins, watches, and handbags, to computer parts, medication, and goods the military uses, some in combat. It is VERY out of control.

 

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[AMorgan]

Another thing.... You may try to find an old "Red Book" for US coins... The date isnt as important as the important information contained inside... The book lists the diameters and weight of each type of coin. It will also tell on some types if the coin should have a reeded edge, plain edge or letters on the edge of the coin.

Alan

 

[piegrande]

I had forgotten but I had a Red Book on coins, many years ago. Hadn't thought about it in years. Thanks for the memory.

 

[piegrande]

Okay, I am back. Thanks to y'all helping me and encouraging me, and Googling things you mentioned, I was a lot smarter when I went this time!

I scanned them, and we weighed them. All three seem to be false, but I will explain why I think so, for your review. Last things first.

After I carefully scanned them, I mentioned that one good thing to do is to weigh them. He said he had a good scale, and went down to the store and came back with the prettiest tiny digital scale, much like the druggies use on TV. (?) I want one.

1846 Seated Dollar. 18.8 grams.

1800 Bust dollar 19.6 grams.

1799 Bust dollar 20.2 grams.

Amorgan said: a Morgan dollar should be about 26.7 grams...

As best as I can dig via Google, the lightest silver dollar, badly worn, should be more than 22 grams, and as best as I can tell most silver dollar designs when new weighed much closer to that 26.7 grams. None of these showed more than minimal wear.

I did not have a magnet. If I can find one, maybe I will run that test when I go back. Hey, we should have some on the refrigerator, no?

I explained to him when I asked to scan them that there many thieves in the world, and 'experts' (well, I think you are and I am typing this posting) said the Chinese were making false coins, and it was possible his father had been swindled (my Spanish is poor, so I said robbed) by a crook when he bought them.

I think I will walk downtown to buy the ham my wife wants, and see if he wants to do the magnet test. Thanks a zilliion. Better he get bad news than I have legal problems.

This passes the buck to others so he doesn't think I am blaming him. And, as someone suggested, there is no way to assume he knew they were false.


Oh, another thing, though in the form of a question. As I said, thanks to y'all I was much better prepared. I examined the rotation front to back.

All my newer US coins, and the Mexican ones for that matter, if I hold the coin heads up, and aim it so the top is aimed up, then swivel the top of the coin towards my face so I can see the back, the back will then also be aimed up.

That means front and back are made 180 degrees off. Not sure if I am explaining that right.

One of the three, the 1800, was probably within 5 or 10 degrees from a true 180, but the other two were off about 20 or 30 degrees from 180.

Would one not expect the front and back to be aligned at 180 degrees? Is that another sign of a bad coin or they made them that way in those days?


If someone wants to examine false coins, I can post the six scannings, though I may make them smaller since it looks like they are false without further ado. I realize many of you already know what they look like, but if someone doesn't, your wish is my command.

Oh, man, this was interesting! I get all enthused when I am working on a mystery, though I prefer when I actually have a chance to solve it. You guys helping me on this really fired me up.

I am a little sad for him, though. I would have liked to see him come into some money.

 

[piegrande]

I forgot to answer one question, what the edges looked like. There were little parallel lines all the way around. I forgot to look for letters on the sides.

 

[Iron Patch]

Okay, I am back. Thanks to y'all helping me and encouraging me, and Googling things you mentioned, I was a lot smarter when I went this time!

I scanned them, and we weighed them. All three seem to be false, but I will explain why I think so, for your review. Last things first.

After I carefully scanned them, I mentioned that one good thing to do is to weigh them. He said he had a good scale, and went down to the store and came back with the prettiest tiny digital scale, much like the druggies use on TV. (?) I want one.

1846 Seated Dollar. 18.8 grams.

1800 Bust dollar 19.6 grams.

1799 Bust dollar 20.2 grams.

Amorgan said: a Morgan dollar should be about 26.7 grams...

As best as I can dig via Google, the lightest silver dollar, badly worn, should be more than 22 grams, and as best as I can tell most silver dollar designs when new weighed much closer to that 26.7 grams. None of these showed more than minimal wear.

I did not have a magnet. If I can find one, maybe I will run that test when I go back. Hey, we should have some on the refrigerator, no?

I explained to him when I asked to scan them that there many thieves in the world, and 'experts' (well, I think you are and I am typing this posting) said the Chinese were making false coins, and it was possible his father had been swindled (my Spanish is poor, so I said robbed) by a crook when he bought them.

I think I will walk downtown to buy the ham my wife wants, and see if he wants to do the magnet test. Thanks a zilliion. Better he get bad news than I have legal problems.

This passes the buck to others so he doesn't think I am blaming him. And, as someone suggested, there is no way to assume he knew they were false.


Oh, another thing, though in the form of a question. As I said, thanks to y'all I was much better prepared. I examined the rotation front to back.

All my newer US coins, and the Mexican ones for that matter, if I hold the coin heads up, and aim it so the top is aimed up, then swivel the top of the coin towards my face so I can see the back, the back will then also be aimed up.

That means front and back are made 180 degrees off. Not sure if I am explaining that right.

One of the three, the 1800, was probably within 5 or 10 degrees from a true 180, but the other two were off about 20 or 30 degrees from 180.

Would one not expect the front and back to be aligned at 180 degrees? Is that another sign of a bad coin or they made them that way in those days?


If someone wants to examine false coins, I can post the six scannings, though I may make them smaller since it looks like they are false without further ado. I realize many of you already know what they look like, but if someone doesn't, your wish is my command.

Oh, man, this was interesting! I get all enthused when I am working on a mystery, though I prefer when I actually have a chance to solve it. You guys helping me on this really fired me up.

I am a little sad for him, though. I would have liked to see him come into some money.

The term you are looking for is "die axis". If you can spin the coin around and read both sides correctly, the die axis would be up & up. If you spin the coin and one side is up, and the other is down, the die axis listing will be up & down. I'm just guessing here, but I think most early US coins would probably be up and down because it's usually medals that are up and up. Anyway, that should be enough for you to research legit coins to match against the potential (most likely) fakes.

PS... Many coins have a rotaed Die axis too, making it slightly off.

 

[piegrande]

Okay, Googled die axis, and it makes sense. Using that term, the US coins I have, have a die axis of 180 degrees.

The fake coins were off from 180, up to 30 degrees, which you said may be the case.

So, not a test, but again I learned something useful.

Tomorrow I take Bugs Bunny off the refrigerator and run a final test on his coins. Thanks.

 

[AMorgan]

I forgot to answer one question, what the edges looked like. There were little parallel lines all the way around. I forgot to look for letters on the sides.

The parallel lines you refer to are considered "reeded". True bust dollars have a lettered edge that says "HUNDRED CENTS ONE DOLLAR OR UNIT". (I got to look closely at a friend's genuine 1798 dollar that he has for sale...) The first US dollar to have a reeded edge was the 1838 Seated Liberty dollar.

This is one detail counterfeiters have the most difficult time with...

Alan

 

[piegrande]

Oops. More evidence of false coins. Wow!

 

[piegrande]

I borrowed Bugs Bunny from the front of the refrigerator and went to tell the man the coins were false.

When I held the BB magnet over each coin, there was a sharp CLICK as it jumped to the magnet. Bummer.

Though I believe he thought they were good coins, it is also true that he knows for a fact that he can't pull a fast one on me, if he did know better.

I told him that he said he has quite a few, that now he knows how to test them.

I also showed him that the older ones do not have the reeded edges.

 

[Iron Patch]

That's not really a surprise, and to compare to watches again, I see it all the time. If the the story creates some doubt it almost always ends up being a fake item.

It sure must have been terrible news for him hearing how his small fortune went to zero with one bugs bunny magnet!

 

[piegrande]

When you put it that way it is funny, isn't it? But, when he weighed them, I hinted very strongly that was too light and an indication of false coins. But, because it was important to him, I played it up, told him I had to check,and the Bugs Bunny magnet was extra so he'd know I did everything I could to help him if it were possible.

I think it's called mumbo-jumbo, no?

I did tell him to weigh them all, because maybe not all are bad. Not knowing where they really came from, it is possible there is a silver dollar in the mess. Probably not, but who knows?

 

[piegrande]

I went back to my board and posted the rest of this story. I noted something I had forgotten. This man said they came from his grandfather, sixty years ago. Not his father.

That would well have been around 1950 when the braceros went to the US.

I wonder if these false dollars were being produced in those days? That would be useful information to understand if this man has been trying to pull a fast one, or really thinks they were real.

 

[AMorgan]

I believe from the description that these are fairly recent. I purchased a few examples of the fakes like you described when I was on a trip to Indonesia in 2007-8. There is a street in Jakarta called Jalan Surabaya where they street vendors have notebooks full of these coins. They all stick to a magnet, and I drove them nuts when on my 2008 trip I brought a magnet with me to mess with them. After showing them I knew they were all fakes, I talked the price down to less than $5 per example. I saw bust dollars, peace and morgan dollars and seated liberty dollars that all looked good, but I knew they werent.

These counterfiets have been identified as being manufactured in China. While I am not certain how long they have been making this type, I believe that they havent been around for that long. The newest fakes are far more dangerous as they are now being made with copper-nickel alloys and are closer looking to the real things. There are also some being made and placed into fake certified slabs that are being sold on ebay...

Alan

 

[piegrande]

It would be nice to know for sure, because if they haven't been making them for 60 years, he is a thief and a liar. Still, maybe I don't need to know, but I like to know when people are thieves and liars.

In this case, I am sure if he is, he won't try me again.

 

[somehiker]

A troubling development,which may affect our pursuits.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/gold-coin-dealers-decry-tax-law/story?id=11211611

also:http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,337452.0.html

Seems like we are backing up.

Regards:SH.