Screwtop- How Old Is It?

[Bigcypresshunter]

Someone brought this eBay ad to my attention. Does anyone know when these screwtops were first used or invented? Its being sold as a 1715 artifact by someone unknown to me.. Is this possible to be a 1715 artifact? Its approx. 2 inches diameter.

http://cgi.ebay.com/120724702170?ru...02170&_sacat=See-All-Categories&_fvi=1&_rdc=1

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Regarding the results to my research involving "the earliest threaded cap," it's still a somewhat open question for me. Personally, I prefer "empirical" examples of such things, meaning; patents - documented proof, etc. Of course, back in the 1700s and before no one was particularily interested in patents and the like. The most popularly accepted early patent for a screw-top lid is the Mason canning jar in 1858. I know now there were earlier examples, I just can't necessarily "prove it."

I think I will look into this some more and see what I can come up with. If we can find bonafide examples (pictures) of other 1700 and earlier threaded items, (nuts - bolts - tools - anything and everything) it only stands to reason that container caps and closures should also be among them. Right?

Mason Patent Link: http://www.fohbc.com/PDF_Files/NewIdeas_Faulkner.pdf

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Pewter was probably first made in the Bronze Age (between 2000 and 500 BC).

Zinc was probably named by the alchemist Paracelsus after the German word Zinke. German chemist Andreas Sigismund Marggraf is normally given credit for discovering pure metallic zinc in 1746.

Don't ya just love terms like "probably?"

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[Bigcypresshunter]

If we can find bonafide examples (pictures) of other 1700 and earlier threaded items, (nuts - bolts - tools - anything and everything) it only stands to reason that container caps and closures should also be among them. Right?

Yes I would think so.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

BigCy ~

I'm thinking the item in question is pewter. But who - what - where - and when it was made, I can't say for certain.

Check this out ... The site I got this from really seemed to know their stuff ... or should I say "snuff" ? If nothing else, this should confirm they were using threaded lids during the 18th century.

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The first master pewter maker documented to have made relief pieces is Roland Greffet between 1528 and 1568. One can assume that it was he who invented this type of work. A school producing tankards and dishes with relief decoration soon grew in Lyon. The most common decorative motif was an arabesque, which was used in a variety of ways and can be thought of as the leitmotif for the work of this group of artists. The master of relief pewter was François Briot. His most famous piece is the Temperantia Dish, which takes its name from the allegorical figure of Temperance or Temperantia that appears in the center of it. It dates from 1585-90.

Pewter with etched relief decoration was made by Nürnberg pewter makers from the last third of the 16th century onward. The earliest piece made by Nicholas Horchhaimer, bearing the date 1567, is a dish cast in an etched mold with an allegorical figure representing Fame, or Fama, in the center and historical scenes or incidents from classical mythology around the edge. Other large dishes made by Horchhaimer and his contemporary Albrecht Preissensin are again decorated with themes from classical antiquity or sometimes with biblical scenes; for smaller plates they kept to abstract decoration.

Item Pictured Below ...

Rare 18th century cast pewter snuff bottle with screw-off lid in a remarkable state of preservation. Unmarked, but with nice evidence of use, and at first sight might be mistaken for a travelling inkwell. Inside shows seamed construction about ⅜" above the base. An unusual item in excellent condition. 2⅛" high and 2¼" max diameter.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

P.S. ~

My current phase of research involves those shaker deals they used to sprinkle salt onto freshly "inked" documents to help them dry faster and not smudge/bleed. I will let you know if I find anything ... that is, unless someone beats me to it first.

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

BigCy ~

I apologize for bombarding your thread like this, but it has me intrigued. Plus, I have nothing better to do at the moment.

The item/substance I referred to earlier as a "shaker deal," is actually a ...

POUNCE POT

Pounce is a fine powder that was sprinkled over wet ink to hasten drying prior to the invention of blotting paper. The powder was prepared from substances such as finely ground salt, sand, or powdered soft minerals such as talc or soapstone. A mixture of sandarac gum, and pumice or cuttlebone serves as pounce and can also be used for sizing paper and vellum.

Pounce was commonly kept in a pounce pot, a small container resembling a salt shaker. Many pounce pots have concave lids to make it easier to return spare pounce to the pot.

Below is a picture of the top of the item I got from e-bay. I can't quite tell if it is truly concaved or not, as mentioned about pounce pots above, but it might be.

The second picture is one I "painted" to suggest where the little holes might have been, and perhaps why that portion corroded away more easily. Pure speculation, I agree, but possibly a clue worth looking into.

By the way, I just noticed a green check mark on the main heading. Is this positively ID'd?

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Wouldn't you know it ... the first decent picture of a pounce pot I find that looks about right, and it's missing the lid. Nor was there any mention of size/diameter. But the thread count looks about right. Oh well, at least I 'might' be on the right track. We'll see. I'm calling it a day for now because the kids just arrived for dinner.

Later,

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[ Text which accompanied picture below ]

You wouldn’t find a pounce pot on most desks today, not even in an ornamental capacity. Pounce pots were a desk-accessory of the 16th-18th centuries and looked a bit like salt-shakers, being tall, with lids with holes in the top. The pounce pot held a substance called pounce, which was a dry, grainy substance, made up of finely ground sand, salt or crushed cuttlefish-bones (amongst the several other things which could be used to make pounce). Pounce was used to soak up ink before the advent of blotting-paper, and it acted a bit like talcum-powder, soaking up any moisture on the page. Having written your document, you tipped the pounce onto your page, sprinking it all over your writing like an overly-generous helping of salt, and waited for the ink to be sopped up by the powder. Once the paper was nice and dry and the excess ink was soaked up, the writer tipped the used pounce back into the pounce pot.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Final note for the day:

I just re-read the initial post and was reminded that the item in question is approximately ...

"Two inches in diameter"

This is even better regarding the majority of the pounce pots I have been looking at.

Lastly ... I am saving/copying/pasting the description from e-bay as this information may eventually delete itself.

AUTHENTIC 1715 FLEET SHIPWRECK ARTIFACT ....SILVER OR PEWTER SCREW ON TOP OR BOTTOM TO SHAKER THAT PROBABLY HELD SUGAR FOR USE IN THE GALLEY OF THE OLD WOODEN SHIP.

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I know I said more than once that "this is the last one," but I was just sharing all of this stuff with my 32 year old daughter, and I promised her I would tell everyone that she thinks I'm crazy and on the wrong track with the "pounce pot" theory. Of course she doesn't have a clue what the lid went to, but suspects it may not have had holes in it at all originally, and that the 'slot' is where it just happened to corrode away. She may be right and I may be wrong. I will concede that. Who can say for certain whether it originally had holes in it or not?

But just in case someone wishes to take sides with me and prove my daughter wrong, I present this final bit of evidence and invite you to do some additional searching. And if you agree with my daughter and think I'm crazy, that's okay too because I have been called worse.

I apologize for the small picture below, but that's the way it came and I was unable to enlarge it. The following text was with the picture. Plus, I likely won't be back until such time as I can find a positive connection between the threaded lid and the "whatever" it went to.

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[Text w/picture]

A collection of five silver pepperettes and pounce pots, to include; a pedestal pounce pot, William Bateman, London 1822, with ball finial, 12cm high, weight 3oz. A silver caster London 1767, of baluster form, with pierced cover and flame finial, initialled to base 'S S*P' 12cm high, weight 2oz. A silver pedestal pounce pot, London 1810, Rebecca Emes & Edward Barnard. And two silver pepperettes, London 1898, 8cm high and Birmingham 1912, 6cm high.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

By the way, I just noticed a green check mark on the main heading. Is this positively ID'd?

Im sorry Bob I cant take more enthuseism in this object because its not mine. I dont even know the eBay seller. It was discussed on another treasure site and I only wanted to confirm or deny the use of threaded containers in 1715. All the bottle books will tell you that fine threaded metal technology didnt exist in 1715, but it appears that it did. So my question has been answered and I posted the green check.


I dont have the item. I didnt buy it so I cannot confirm or deny the type of metal nor can I answer questions or confirm your pounce pot ID, although it seems a likely possibility. . I apologize to Suzyseaweed for any seller backlash. It appears she may have found a rare threaded 1715 fleet item and it appears you may have IDed it.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

BigCy ~

Thanks. It was a fun ride while it lasted. Plus it gave me reason to conduct some additional research into threaded closures, which is something I have been meaning to do for a long time now anyway. It's one thing to discuss threaded closures on jars and bottles, but something else entirely when it comes to "the rest of the story." So the next time someone ask, "when did they first start using threaded lids?," I will be able to respond with ...

"That's an interesting question! Let me tell you a little of what I know about it."

Thanks again.

Take care, and happy Memorial Day to all!

Bob

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

BigCy ~

So the next time someone ask, "when did they first start using threaded lids?,"

LOL there is no simple answer. Happy Memorial Day.