SAMBO Cap Gun UPDATE Before/After Pics

[Breezie]

UPDATE: The before and after electrolysis pics are posted on Today's Finds. Here is the link:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?topic=423067.msg3016733#msg3016733



Hey Gang, This afternoon I MD an hour or so and had a productive dig. I think I found a SAMBO cap gun. The cast iron SAMBO was made by Ives, dated June 21, 1887. The shape is right, the length is right, plus I went through all 199 pages of Cast Iron Toy Pistols by Charles W. Best, and this was the best match. I think it is worth electrolysis, although I've never 'fried' anything before, but understand it is a simple process. Can the electrolysis take it down to nothing if the rust is throughout?

I also found a small brass buckle with 2 prongs; it looks like a suspender buckle. The cotter pin is a strange one in that I've never seen one with equal length legs. Every one I've ever seen had one leg longer than the other so it could be opened easily, but I'm not the 'tool time' person.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

PS: When I saw this in the dirt, partially covered, I thought it was a boot pistol, and was short of calling 911!

Breezie

 

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[DevilDog812]

Re: I think I found SAMBO

i would also suggest looking at chukers' post here
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,407784.msg2901821.html#msg2901821

as you can see, i had a few questions of my own when i got started

 

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[TheCannonballGuy]

Re: I think I found SAMBO

Breezie, I'm still doing the Electrolysis process the same way I was taught 35 years ago, and still using the same kind of equipment. Meaning, a car battery charger (12 volts), with the relic positioned in the exact center of a metal (iron/steel) bucket or can, which serves as the anode.

In recent years in various relic-discussion forums, I see that other people are using a plastic or glass container, which requires the addition of a separate anode, such as an iron/steel rod or piece of steel silverware. Those people report they are getting satisfactory results. However, since my steel-bucket setup has given me consistently excellent results for 35 years, I'm staying with it. I think the excellent results comes from the fact that using a steel bucket (or can) as the anode causes the relic to be literally surrounded by the anode. In a glass/plastic container, only one side of the relic is exposed to the anode. Theoretically, the side of the relic that is facing away from the anode doesn't get cleaned as thoroughly. But when the anode surrounds the relic, all sides get cleaned equally.

The illustration at the end of this post shows the setup I've employed. If I'm cleaning a lightweight relic, such as a rifle's lockplate, I suspend it from a stick laid across the top of the bucket. The illustration shows a cannonball in the "tank" ...and being a heavy relic, it must sit on a non-conductive object (such as a half-brick) to keep it from contacting the steel bucket's bottom.

Now, to answer the questions you asked...
You wrote:
> Should I leave it in the water overnight even though the charger is not running?

Leaving it in the water overnight won't hurt it ...and by not removing it, you avoid accidentally knocking any rust-concretion loose by touching it.

> Am I disturbing the process by removing it even though the charger is not running?

Perhaps... if removing the relic from the water causes sections of the rust-concretion which have been "loosened" by the incomplete cleaning to fall off.

> Have I screwed-up the overall process by removing the loose rust from the past 2 days?

The photo you posted shows the process hadn't proceeeded far enough for anything more than a few small sections of the rust-concretion to come off. I believe the process will still work fine if you resume it and let it run undisturbed.

Unfortunately, the diagram does not show alligator-clamps on the ends of the battery-charger's wires. The red/positive clamp clips onto the steel bucket/can, and the black/negative clamp clips onto the relic. I use a file to scrape a small spot on the relic absolutely clean of rust-concretion (down to bare metal), which is necessary to achieve "electrical connection." When you plug in the charger, the meter on it will tell you whether you've got current-flow, or not.

For some unknown reason, I'm having trouble with the posting-window, so I'll have to end this post and start a new reply to answer your other questions.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Re: I think I found SAMBO

Before answering your other remaining questions, I feel an obligation to point out that the "downside" of using a car battery charger is that it puts out enough electrical amperage to kill a human being. Therefore, no part of the setup (including the water and the relic) should be touched while the charger is plugged in. Also, great care must be taken to absolutely prevent any kids or pets from having access to the setup.

Breezie wrote:
> I was also wondering about the size of the container and the amount of water.
> Since the cap gun is only 4 1/2 inches long, I'm using a plastic 'shoe box' like you buy at Walmart for storage.
> The anode is a Victorian iron door lock plate and it's about 3 to 4 inches away from the cap gun. There is about
> 4 inches of water in the container, with the top edge of the door plate sticking out as not to corrode the +end of my charger.
> The cap gun is completely submerged.

My only experience is with a steel container (which, as previously mentioned, serves as the anode). Even so, based on that experience, I believe what is MOST relevant in your setup isn't the size of the plastic container or the amount of water ...it's the "positioning" of the relic relative to the anode you are using (an iron doorlock plate). You said the doorlock plate's top is out of the water, so I assume the plate is standing up against one of the plastic shoebox's walls. Is your Sambo pistol laying flat on the bottom of the shoebox, or standing up against the shoebox's wall? You want to have as much of the pistol's body "facing" the anode as possible.

Your photo shows that not much "progress" has occurred after 10 hours in your current Electrolysis setup. You have the choice of continuing the cleaning with your current setup, or switching to using a steel/iron container. My opinion (which may vary from other forum-readers and Electrolysis-users here): If the Sambo pistol was mine, I'd replace the plastic shoebox with a "tin can" large enough to hold the pistol ...preferrably, a 33-ounce coffee can or other "large" food-can, for use in the setup shown in the illustration I posted.

Important note: Some "tin cans" (and steel buckets) have a nearly-invisible plastic coating on their inside, to prevent the food from reacting with the can/bucket's steel. A simple way of removing that interior coating is to run the Electrolysis process "in reverse" ...meaning, put a clean long iron/steel object (such as a silverware knife) standing up in the center of the can, and then switch the battery charger's clamps to the opposite from the way you connect them in regular Electrolysis. Meaning, instead of positive/red-clamp-to-can/bucket, you put the red clamp on the clean iron/steel object in the can/bucket. Reversing the charger's connections will remove the plastic coating from the can/bucket's interior in a short period of time.

Note: To "stand" the dinnerknife in the CENTER of the can, lay a narrow wooden stick (or a plastic ruler) across the can's top, and use a clothespin to clasp the knife's blade-end onto the ruler. Don't forget, the knife's base must NOT touch the can's metal bottom. If necessary, put a saucer or other non-conductive object in the bottom of the can.

All of that being said... there is a problem with using a typical thin-walled can or bucket. After several uses, you'll begin to get pinhole leaks in the can/bucket. The solution is to place the can/bucket inside a slightly larger PLASTIC container (such as a plastic trashcan). Then the leaky steel iron can/bucket won't matter -- and it will still function just fine as an anode.

I should also mention, the amount of cleaning time depends on three factors:
1- the size of the relic
2- the metal the relic is made of -- coins clean in minutes, iron relics can take 12-to-36 hours,
2- the amount of electrical current -- the higher the current (in Amps), the faster the cleaning gets done. However, fastest isn't always best ...and can even be destructive. I've found that low amperage (1-to-2 amps) is gentler on the relic, and thus tends to give me a better result.

Sidenote: As Chukers posts indicate, an electrical-device charger, which operates in MilliAmps, works fine for coins. http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,407784.msg2901821.html#msg2901821
For relics larger than coins, especially iron relics (like gunparts, bayonets, and cannonballs), I recommend a car battery charger. I "run" my cannonballs for 24-to-36 hours, at 2 amps or less, and get excellent results.

All of that being said... Electrolysis will not remove quite every last bit of rust-concretion from a relic. You'll need to do a little "finishing-work" by hand to remove those last little bits. Then scrub the relic with a toothbrush thoroughly under running water, then PAT it dry (with a towel, and let it sit for about 24 hours before you apply spray-on Polyurethane. I recommend "Minwax Fast-drying Polyurethane, SATIN Finish" (not glossy), which you can buy in a spray-can for about $6 at Wal-Mart.

 

[Breezie]

Re: I think I found SAMBO

CBG, Thank you so much for providing a wealthy plethora of information about electrolysis. You might want to do a copy/paste and also post it under the cleaning relics forum. I know it will be beneficial to me as well as others. Breezie

 

[Brian C.]

Re: I think I found SAMBO

Now that could be a nice find for sure, but I would try a wire brush and some water and just take your time.

 

[Noodle]

Re: I think I found SAMBO

Hi Breezie, after I found out "how" to do electrolosis, I had fun. Depends really on the metals you are trying to force to turn loose of the deposits. Just watch what you're doing. That's basically it. Yes, you can overdo it, but not likely. Once you see the basic form taking shape, you'll stop and start salvaging. Good luck!

 

[Grundestoun]

Re: I think I found SAMBO

Very cool gun! can't wait to see it when it gets done.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: I think I found SAMBO

I havent read through all the great advice given here on electrolysis but Breezie, please do not be afraid to use it. You are missing out on one of the greatest iron preservation methods. While its true it cannot bring back what is already lost, it will indeed preserve what remains. The results are truly amazing.
If you do it outside, you will have no worry about fumes. Dont use stainless like I do because its poisonous.

The electric is no more dangerous than plugging in a lamp or any other electrical appliance that you use everyday. If you are afraid to plug in a lamp than maybe you should not use it.

Did you ever use a battery charger? The clip voltage is usually 12 volt DC and IMO nothing to worry about at all unless you have a pacemaker. Respect electric as you always do and there will be no problem.

I use a baking soda/water solution. Apparently there are many variations. I use the anode in the water.

 

[Breezie]

Re: I think I found SAMBO

Thanks gang on all of the advice; I certainly appreciate it. It's amazing what electrolysis can do, and I can't wait for it to finish so I can post the pics. It already looks a million times better.

BCH, did you find anything on the coast after the Hurricane?

Breezie

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: I think I found SAMBO

Thanks gang on all of the advice; I certainly appreciate it. It's amazing what electrolysis can do, and I can't wait for it to finish so I can post the pics. It already looks a million times better.

BCH, did you find anything on the coast after the Hurricane?

Breezie

No the waves did not cut the beaches enough to find anything old. http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,420161.msg2996011.html#msg2996011


The rust seems to flake of eventually and it leaves the solid base. BTW it will eat up one of the clips. I cant remember which one but you will eventually lose a clip if its underwater.

 

[taz42o]

Re: I think I found SAMBO

Well how did it go with the electrolysis Breezie? Pics?

 

[Breezie]

Re: I think I found SAMBO

Well how did it go with the electrolysis Breezie? Pics?

Taz, the electrolysis hasn't been completed yet, but will post pics when finished. We lost power during Hurricane Irene, and it put us behind on a lot of things. Thanks for asking, Breezie

 

[savant365]

Re: I think I found SAMBO

Well how did it go with the electrolysis Breezie? Pics?

Taz, the electrolysis hasn't been completed yet, but will post pics when finished. We lost power during Hurricane Irene, and it put us behind on a lot of things. Thanks for asking, Breezie

You're not gonna let a little ol' thing like a hurricane slow you down are you Breezie? Seriously though I hope you and yours are all OK and everything gets back to normal for you soon, take care.

HH Charlie

 

[Breezie]

I've posted the before & after pics on Today's Find. The difference is amazing Here's the link to the pics:
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,423067.msg3016733.html#msg3016733
Breezie

 

[taz42o]

Nice gun Breezie , and very good work Cannonballguy.

 

[Metal Magnet]

that is a nice, unique find!

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

the design patent

 

[Breezie]

BCH, thanks for the patent. The IVES Company made the cap gun. I guess the Adams fellow was the inventor. It made me smile since 'Adams' is my middle name! Breezie

 

[NGE]

WOWSER! Nice restoration. I have a pile of rusty "square spikes' that I'll have to try that on. Thanks CBG.......NGE