SAMBO Cap Gun UPDATE Before/After Pics

[Breezie]

UPDATE: The before and after electrolysis pics are posted on Today's Finds. Here is the link:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?topic=423067.msg3016733#msg3016733



Hey Gang, This afternoon I MD an hour or so and had a productive dig. I think I found a SAMBO cap gun. The cast iron SAMBO was made by Ives, dated June 21, 1887. The shape is right, the length is right, plus I went through all 199 pages of Cast Iron Toy Pistols by Charles W. Best, and this was the best match. I think it is worth electrolysis, although I've never 'fried' anything before, but understand it is a simple process. Can the electrolysis take it down to nothing if the rust is throughout?

I also found a small brass buckle with 2 prongs; it looks like a suspender buckle. The cotter pin is a strange one in that I've never seen one with equal length legs. Every one I've ever seen had one leg longer than the other so it could be opened easily, but I'm not the 'tool time' person.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

PS: When I saw this in the dirt, partially covered, I thought it was a boot pistol, and was short of calling 911!

Breezie

 

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[cntrydncr1]

Re: I think I found SAMBO

Looks like a cool item and worth trying the electrolysis. I would love to try it myself on a few things but I'm a scardy cat of zapping myself! lol can't wait to see the results

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Re: I think I found SAMBO (and a brass buckle & cotter ? pin)

Definitely a cool toy pistol..... I'd definitely dunk it.

 

[DIGGING1971GUY]

Re: I think I found SAMBO (and a brass buckle & cotter ? pin)

Cool finds Breezie,im getting to where i love digging buckles ,good digging day !!

 

[savant365]

Re: I think I found SAMBO (and a brass buckle & cotter ? pin)

Neat pistol Breezie, I've never tried electrolysis either but I think I would practice on something a little less neat first. Surely you have some rusty stuff around there to work with. Good luck,

HH Charlie

 

[taz42o]

Re: I think I found SAMBO (and a brass buckle & cotter ? pin)

If it is all rust you will not have much left after electrolysis .
Make sure it IS cast iron before using electrolysis, white metal, brass and other alloys can be ruined.

And a few safety tips.
DO NOT use salt water.
Use washing soda [Sodium Carbonate] and water.
use steel anode, not stainless steel.
Work outside.
Use a GFI outlet .
Unplug charger before reaching into container.
Do not mess with AC or DC and water at all if you have heart problems, even low volt, low amp.
And never use two hands near AC or DC . current in one hand and ground to the other will cause the current to flow across chest and heart.

Following some safety rules and using common sense it is relatively safe but I would avoid it if I had no understanding of the items i was using.

 

[worldtalker]

Re: I think I found SAMBO (and a brass buckle & cotter ? pin)

Breezie,So much for quality assurance on the cotter pin production line!!!!Very nice buckle,wonder if the cap in the gun still works!!!

 

[kenley]

Re: I think I found SAMBO (and a brass buckle & cotter ? pin)

Hi again Breezie. For years I wished that I had started collecting cap guns when I was younger and they were available. I wonder what the purpose of the bulb is? Suppose it changes the sound?
The cotter pin is quite normal. Someone just shortened it, then dropped and lost it. Most of the time they are too long. Some people insert them, then spread them, then trim them. Other times they are trimed first.
Good luck on the cooking...I want to try it myself. I have boo-coos of small battery chargers. I think they would work.

 

[Breezie]

Re: I think I found SAMBO

If it is all rust you will not have much left after electrolysis .
Make sure it IS cast iron before using electrolysis, white metal, brass and other alloys can be ruined.

And a few safety tips.
DO NOT use salt water.
Use washing soda [Sodium Carbonate] and water.
use steel anode, not stainless steel.
Work outside.
Use a GFI outlet .
Unplug charger before reaching into container.
Do not mess with AC or DC and water at all if you have heart problems, even low volt, low amp.
And never use two hands near AC or DC . current in one hand and ground to the other will cause the current to flow across chest and heart.

Following some safety rules and using common sense it is relatively safe but I would avoid it if I had no understanding of the items i was using.

Taz, thank you for your input on electrolysis; I really appreciate it. Yes, I know the cap gun is cast iron, but have no idea if the entire thing has rusted or not. It's probably been in the ground 100 yrs. Is there anyway for me to tell how much iron is still left?

To be perfectly honest with you, I've always been afraid of electrolysis. I've been buying/selling antiques & collectibles just about all of my adult life, and MD-ing around 30+ yrs., and have never done it. I've found some pretty neat iron items, but never had the nerve to do the electrolysis because water + electricity = not me! In the past, I have used store bought rust removers (soaking) but none have worked very well. I'm well read on the subject because each time I 'think' I'm going to use electrolysis, I read the instructions on the Internet over and over, but then chicken out.

What do you mean by do not mess with AC or DC and water at all if you have heart problems, even low volt, low amp. Mess meaning don't do it at all? or what? How long does it take to clean an item like this? Is it a long process?

I'll be more than happy to pay someone to do the electrolysis; any takers?

Thanks, Breezie

 

[Breezie]

Re: I think I found SAMBO

CntryDancr, Yeppers, I'm with you on being a scurdy cat and electrolysis, and Savant, good advice on practicing on a less rare piece. Ken, yes I think it is a cool cap gun, and a pretty rare one at that. Hopefully one of our good folk from TNet won't mind doing it for me. I'm not interested in it cleaned enough to work, but just enough to display well.

DiggingGuy, I like finding buckles too. I think this one is a 19th cen. suspender buckle.

Kenly & WorldTalker, I appreciate the info on cotter pins. The end of this one looks factory cut, which is the only reason I kept it, but it is headed to the junk metal box today.

Breezie

 

[taz42o]

Re: I think I found SAMBO (and a brass buckle & cotter ? pin)

Breezie,

I dont know how you could tell if there is much iron left without taking the chance ,maybe try one of the rust removers you talked about first just to see whats underneath.

Yes I meant not at all ,unless your not afraid of death.
There are many variables ,I have touched high voltages and am still here. A person with bad heart and sweaty hands or a cut can be killed from lower voltage or ampres.

Standard utilization voltages produce currents passing through a human body in the milliampere (mA) range (1,000 mA=1 Amp). Estimated effects of 60 Hz AC currents which pass through the chest are shown in Table 1.

Table 1. Estimated Effects of 60 Hz AC Currents
1 mA Barely perceptible
16 mA Maximum current an average man can grasp and "let go"
20 mA Paralysis of respiratory muscles
100 mA Ventricular fibrillation threshold
2 Amps Cardiac standstill and internal organ damage
* Contact with 20 milliamps of current can be fatal. As a frame of reference, a common household circuit breaker may be rated at 15, 20, or 30 amps.

The presence of moisture from environmental conditions such as standing water, wet clothing, high humidity, or perspiration increases the possibility of a low-voltage electrocution. The level of current passing through the human body is directly related to the resistance of its path through the body. Under dry conditions, the resistance offered by the human body may be as high as 100,000 Ohms. Wet or broken skin may drop the body's resistance to 1,000 Ohms. The following illustrations of Ohm's law demonstrates how moisture affects low-voltage electrocutions. Under dry conditions, Current=Volts/Ohms = 120/100,000 = 1 mA, a barely perceptible level of current. Under wet conditions, Current=Volts/Ohms = 120/1,000 = 120 mA, sufficient current to cause ventricular fibrillation. Wet conditions are common during low-voltage electrocutions.



but if you dont touch the wrong part, you wont get shocked.

 

[Breezie]

Re: I think I found SAMBO

Thanks, Taz, you definitely sound like you know your stuff! As I type, the cap gun is being 'fried.' I used ALL safety precautions, and followed compiled instructions from the Internet. I used our car charger, and it is set at 12 volts - 2 amps. Is that okay? How long should it take to clean it? Hours? Days?

Breezie

 

[roy2bears]

Re: I think I found SAMBO

i would let it soak in water and soap. brush with brass brush and repeat a few times

 

[DevilDog812]

Re: I think I found SAMBO

good luck on the electrolysis! i just tried it for the first time a couple of weeks ago, and it was pretty neat. check out the Cleaning and Preservation forums if you want more help.

and i disagree with the above idea, the brass brush could ruin whatever is underneath

 

[taz42o]

Re: I think I found SAMBO

Thanks, Taz, you definitely sound like you know your stuff! As I type, the cap gun is being 'fried.' I used ALL safety precautions, and followed compiled instructions from the Internet. I used our car charger, and it is set at 12 volts - 2 amps. Is that okay? How long should it take to clean it? Hours? Days?

Breezie

Should only take hours not days with 12 volts. 12 volts should be ok or you can probably run it on 6 volt setting if your charger has it, Id use as low of setting as possible. . Hope it comes out good cant wait for the after pics.

 

[Old_Okie]

Re: I think I found SAMBO

Breezie,

If it is cast iron, then the rust should not go very deep. Cast tends to surface rust rather than oxidize through like steel will.

Good luck, looks like a cool piece.

Old_Okie

 

[Breezie]

Re: I think I found SAMBO

Sambo has been cooking outside for 10 hours accumulative. Each time I leave the house, I unplug the car charger for safety reasons. OldOkie, it is cast iron so hopefully it will cleanup nicely, but the rust was extremely thick on it. TexasT, I've posted a pic of the progress so far. Roy2Bears I use an old toothbrush to remove the loose rust each time I take it out of the solution. More pics to follow after more progress. Breezie

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Re: I think I found SAMBO

Breezie wrote:
> I use an old toothbrush to remove the loose rust each time I take it out of the solution.

Uh-oh! Breezie, please DON'T "remove the loose rust each time I take it out of the solution." Let me explain why.

1- As you know, Electrolysis works via electricity. Explanantion for anybody who doesn't know the Electrolysis details: The electricity goes into the relic, then flows outward from the relic through the (conductive) water-solution over to the metal walls of the container/tank.
2- As you probably also know, electricity "follows the path of least resistance."
3- In the Electrolysis process, the rust-concretion on the relic is, in essence, like the insulation on an electrical wire.
4- When you interrupt the Electrolysis process and remove some of the rust-concretion off of the relic, you've created a bare area in the "insulation."
5- Therefore, when you put the relic back into the Electrolysis tank and resume the cleaning, most of the electrons will "take the path of least resistance" and go out of the bare area on the relic ...thus having very little effect on the still-rustcovered areas of the relic.

You'll get much better results by leaving the relic undisturbed until the cleaning process has finished.

If you are worried about the electricity being "on" when you aren't at home, you can simply unplug the electricity-source (the charger) when you leave, and plug it in again when you return. That won't have a negative effect on the cleaning-process.

The information above comes from my experiences in doing Electrolysis on excavated iron relics, which I've now been doing for about 35 years. In that time, I've made some mistakes, and just want to help you avoid making the same mistakes I made.

Fortunately, one mistake which I never made was to touch anything on the Electrolysis setup while it is plugged in. ;-)

 

[Breezie]

Re: I think I found SAMBO

Breezie wrote:
> I use an old toothbrush to remove the loose rust each time I take it out of the solution.

Uh-oh! Breezie, please DON'T "remove the loose rust each time I take it out of the solution." Let me explain why.

1- As you know, Electrolysis works via electricity. Explanation for anybody who doesn't know the Electrolysis details: The electricity goes into the relic, then flows outward from the relic through the (conductive) water-solution over to the metal walls of the container/tank.
2- As you probably also know, electricity "follows the path of least resistance."
3- In the Electrolysis process, the rust-concretion on the relic is, in essence, like the insulation on an electrical wire.
4- When you interrupt the Electrolysis process and remove some of the rust-concretion off of the relic, you've created a bare area in the "insulation."
5- Therefore, when you put the relic back into the Electrolysis tank and resume the cleaning, most of the electrons will "take the path of least resistance" and go out of the bare area on the relic ...thus having very little effect on the still-rust covered areas of the relic.

You'll get much better results by leaving the relic undisturbed until the cleaning process has finished.

If you are worried about the electricity being "on" when you aren't at home, you can simply unplug the electricity-source (the charger) when you leave, and plug it in again when you return. That won't have a negative effect on the cleaning-process.

The information above comes from my experiences in doing Electrolysis on excavated iron relics, which I've now been doing for about 35 years. In that time, I've made some mistakes, and just want to help you avoid making the same mistakes I made.

Fortunately, one mistake which I never made was to touch anything on the Electrolysis setup while it is plugged in. ;-)

CBG, Thank you so much for letting know this. I'm all ears since you've been doing it 35 years and I've been doing it 3 days! I've cleaned it with a brush twice; Monday night and last night. It generally cooks from 5:00 to 10:00pm, and then I removed it from the water(of course AFTER I have unplugged the charger.) Should I leave it in the water overnight even though the charger is not running? Am I disturbing the process by removing it even though the charger is not running? Have I screwed-up the overall process by removing the loose rust from the past 2 days? As you can see, there are a few areas on the cap gun where black cast iron can be seen; small areas, but still present. I was also wondering about the size of the container and the amount of water. Since the cap gun is only 4 1/2 inches long, I'm using a plastic 'shoe box' like you buy at Walmart for storage. The anode is a Victorian iron door lock plate and it's about 3 to 4 inches away from the cap gun. There is about 4 inches of water in the container, with the top edge of the door plate sticking out as not to corrode the +end of my charger. The cap gun is completely submerged. Thanks again, Breezie

 

[DevilDog812]

Re: I think I found SAMBO

its okay to take the gun out and replace the water, and i dont think you messed anything up by brushing it. mightve made it take longer, but you didnt ruin it.

one thing you should make sure to do, is to make sure the wire is connected to the iron and not a rusty spot, or else it wont work correctly