Rock Walls and Piles in deep woods of KY

[NHBandit]

I have no idea if stone walls are common in KY but if that was New England I wouldn't give it a second thought. They are everywhere

 

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[walter white]

I posted this but no response ( under Rock pile) 2 hours out if Lexington in a very remote difficult access area. Any ideas? Definitely not land rock clearing no flat land.

 

[walter white]

I posted this but no response ( under Rock pile) 2 hours out if Lexington in a very remote difficult access area. Any ideas? Definitely not land rock clearing no flat land.

 

[newnan man]

2 things there on that rock column. The base is made of natural flat stones piled up on top each other. The square column atop it is made of larger tool faced stones the were most likely quarried. I doubt they are both from the same time period.

 

[walter white]

2 things there on that rock column. The base is made of natural flat stones piled up on top each other. The square column atop it is made of larger tool faced stones the were most likely quarried. I doubt they are both from the same time period.

Can’t get back with a metal detector for a while but any guess on possible time line?

 

[newnan man]

Can’t get back with a metal detector for a while but any guess on possible time line?

No , I wouldn't really have any idea. The base could be much older the the column. Even though the faced stones were shaped using tools there are similar faced stones found around the world that are extremely old.

 

[Carvinologist]

Deep in the woods in Western KY, came across a strange series of rock walls and rock piles. Up a hill side where it flattens out before getting really steep. I have mapped at least 0.3 miles of these walls, some inner and outer walls and often at right angles. Usually ~3 ft high but taller in some locations, you can tell where it has fallen over time. Some areas of the wall definitely look hand stacked.

Additionally there are at least 17 rock piles, some bigger than others, usually around 4 ft high and 5-7 ft around, generally in a circular pattern. Sometimes, as in the pic attached, the largest stone is right on top of the pile, would require 2-3 men to pick up the rock in this pic.

I have no idea what this is. At first I thought it was a rock wall but the more I walked it, it became clear this is more of a complex. Generally the walls run NE-SW and E-W. The piles don't seem to be in a real orderly fashion.

Could be white farmers but some things don't add up. For example, the location is not great for farming, the ground is still absolutely filled with rocks (so if they were removing field stones they did a terrible job). I suppose could have also been loggers ~10 years ago but why would they waste their time?

I've done some googling and see that other things have been found in KY and surrounding, and I can't seem to find any consensus on this.

The last pic is of a large boulder that appears like a cube, I found it strange.

I have found several broken flint pieces at the base of the hill.

2. The rock pile has a turtle laying eggs at the base...the large rock on top is a mans face looking up, this rock has a map on it also...

Deep in the woods in Western KY, came across a strange series of rock walls and rock piles. Up a hill side where it flattens out before getting really steep. I have mapped at least 0.3 miles of these walls, some inner and outer walls and often at right angles. Usually ~3 ft high but taller in some locations, you can tell where it has fallen over time. Some areas of the wall definitely look hand stacked.

Additionally there are at least 17 rock piles, some bigger than others, usually around 4 ft high and 5-7 ft around, generally in a circular pattern. Sometimes, as in the pic attached, the largest stone is right on top of the pile, would require 2-3 men to pick up the rock in this pic.

I have no idea what this is. At first I thought it was a rock wall but the more I walked it, it became clear this is more of a complex. Generally the walls run NE-SW and E-W. The piles don't seem to be in a real orderly fashion.

Could be white farmers but some things don't add up. For example, the location is not great for farming, the ground is still absolutely filled with rocks (so if they were removing field stones they did a terrible job). I suppose could have also been loggers ~10 years ago but why would they waste their time?

I've done some googling and see that other things have been found in KY and surrounding, and I can't seem to find any consensus on this.

The last pic is of a large boulder that appears like a cube, I found it strange.

I have found several broken flint pieces at the base of the hill.

 

[Carvinologist]

2. The rock pile has a turtle laying eggs at the base...the large rock on top is a mans face looking up, this rock has a map on it also...

3. The square rock under the larger rock, on right of picture has carvings...The square rock on the left (tilted down) is a turtle head eating a mushroom, it's shell is the upper rock...

4. Looking at the rock at the base of the large oak tree, pointing up..it is pointing up at the black anchor carved on the tree..below the anchor, in the light colored area is a mans face, the tree actually has his whole body carved on it..

The lichen on everything tells me this is a real old site...

 

[ticndig]

The lichen on everything tells me this is a real old site...

I've got lichens on my pickup truck , so the site must be at least 22 years old ? like the rest of your assessment, it makes no sense .

 

[Fireflash]

Ancient Druid treasure site ?

 

[mayberry90]

Just checking back in.

https://www.newswire.com/news/thous...ounds-recently-discovered-in-alabama-19593273

Unsure about the rock piles pictured in this thread on my land, although I still have no idea, but I don't think we can say that Indians didn't build any rock walls or piles. They have found thousands of similar looking rock piles and an effigy wall in Anniston, Alabama.

 

[Charl]

In the Northeast in particular, the debate as to whether many features long assumed to be settler activity, such as stone walls and stone piles or cairns, were actually older, has led to the notion of Ceremonial Stone Landscapes(CSL). This was first carried by amateur groups, like NEARA(New England Antiquities Research Association), embraced by many tribes in the East and South, and now, some archaeologists.

From a summary of possible CSL in Shutesbury, Ma:

Ceremonial Stone Landscapes (CSLs): USET, United Southern and Eastern Tribes, Inc., is a non-profit, intertribal organization of over 30 federally-recognized Tribes along the eastern coast of the United States which was formed in order for these Nations to be able to speak with one voice on issues of concern to them all. Ceremonial Stone Landscapes is the term used by USET, for Indigenous stone work sites in eastern North America. Elements often found at these sites include dry stone walls, rock piles (sometimes referred to as cairns or stone groupings), u- shaped structures, standing stones, stone chambers, unusually-shaped boulders, split boulders with stones inserted in the split, and boulders propped up off the ground with smaller rocks (balanced rocks), marked stones, petroglyphs, stone circles, effigies (e.g., turtles, serpents), mounds, platforms, enclosures, and niches.82 The variety of stone structures requires expertise to identify, and TCP of Indigenous Tribes, requires a designated representative of the Tribe to do so”.

Statement of the United South and Eastern Tribes:

https://www.usetinc.org/wp-content/uploads/Resolutions/resolutions/2007%20%20resolutons/2007%20%20resolutons/2007%20037.pdf

And some reading material. Not saying this thread involves a CSL, but the OP is correct in understanding a revision of our interpretation of many sites may be needed. Very heated debate here in the Northeast, pitting mainstream archaeologists favoring 19th century settler activity, and those favoring an older origin. One site in Pa. did allow for OSL testing, and returned dates far predating European colonists.

Essay - Ceremonial Stone Landscapes by Dr. Eric Johnson · Flora & Fauna · Our Land, Our Stories

Layer by layer, this exhibit elucidates how relationships to the land are disrupted by environmental pollution. It explains how negative portrayals of Native American communities have contributed to the targeting of their lands for contamination, while often leaving them marginalized in the...

our-land-our-stories.libraries.rutgers.edu

Native stones: Forgotten history in plain sight

Hidden highways, road signs and rest stops lie beneath our feet, if you know where to look. Throughout the northeast, sometimes paralleling existing roads, like...

www.thephoto-news.com

Ceremonial stone landscape - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Charl]

Just checking back in.

https://www.newswire.com/news/thous...ounds-recently-discovered-in-alabama-19593273

Unsure about the rock piles pictured in this thread on my land, although I still have no idea, but I don't think we can say that Indians didn't build any rock walls or piles. They have found thousands of similar looking rock piles and an effigy wall in Anniston, Alabama.

Yes, you’ve stumbled onto the debate regarding some stone features, including walls and cairns, in Eastern North America. Some of the walls being described in the Northeast resemble snake effigies. Many features are natural, such as glacial erratics, but may have been incorporated into CSL’s. And many sites could certainly be later settler activity. A lot of speculation. Some OSL dating has taken place. Here is a report on OSL dating of a wall and cairn site in Pa. Very old.

Native Americans most certainly built in stone in Eastern North America.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0197693120920492

Oley Hills site - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here are a couple of photos of conical cairns, and a large platform stone, with a so-called trianguloid Manitou stone propped against it. Rhode Island. I took the photos in the late 70’s, when I first started looking for such sites.

I created this thread in 2019. I think quite a few links are dead now, but still some general information on the subject….

 

[Carvinologist]

Just checking back in.

https://www.newswire.com/news/thous...ounds-recently-discovered-in-alabama-19593273

Unsure about the rock piles pictured in this thread on my land, although I still have no idea, but I don't think we can say that Indians didn't build any rock walls or piles. They have found thousands of similar looking rock piles and an effigy wall in Anniston, Alabama.

The Spanish were all over Alabama...and there was gold that had been mined and still can be..what I talked about with the pictures were Spanish signs and symbols that they used...and what I said about the lichen is true , they would use the lichen and manipulate it making symbols within it...I have seen it in Kentucky...there are lots of treasures hidden or buried in Alabama...and these symbols have been used for 100's of years...

 

[mayberry90]

Yes, you’ve stumbled onto the debate regarding some stone features, including walls and cairns, in Eastern North America. Some of the walls being described in the Northeast resemble snake effigies. Many features are natural, such as glacial erratics, but may have been incorporated into CSL’s. And many sites could certainly be later settler activity. A lot of speculation. Some OSL dating has taken place. Here is a report on OSL dating of a wall and cairn site in Pa. Very old.

Native Americans most certainly built in stone in Eastern North America.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0197693120920492

Oley Hills site - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here are a couple of photos of conical cairns, and a large platform stone, with a so-called trianguloid Manitou stone propped against it. Rhode Island. I took the photos in the late 70’s, when I first started looking for such sites.

View attachment 2066220

View attachment 2066221

I created this thread in 2019. I think quite a few links are dead now, but still some general information on the subject….

Very interesting! I have become quite fascinated by this debate. I realize that these exist all over New England and their origins are debatable, but why that should automatically apply to other regions of the US doesn't make much sense to me.

Bennet Young wrote a book called Prehistoric Men of Kentucky and on page 96 he begins a chapter called Stone Structure in Nelson County. In this chapter he outlines 2 parallel stone walls which formed an L shape, over 400 feet in total length. The owner of this property swore it existed when his father moved there in 1777.

Here is a link, it's worth checking out:
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Prehistoric_Men_of_Kentucky/z6cAk5SiLt4C?hl=en&gbpv=1

Also, on page 28, in the chapter called STONE GRAVE BURIALS, Mr. Young clearly describes shallow graves with piles of small rocks 2-4 feet high and 6-12 feet in diameter.

I'm very confused as to why these descriptions exist and yet so many seem to dismiss them out of hand as impossible?

I plan to go back soon and take some pics of other things, for example a half circle of stones I didn't yet photograph.

 

[DanMcG]

I came across this info after reading this post and doing some research, I thought you might find it interesting. At the bottom it has some resources that might help.

No Title 704 - Kentucky Living

Restoring dry stone fences that crisscross Kentucky

www.kentuckyliving.com

 

[brianc053]

Hello everyone. I appreciate the feedback this thread received. I've got to say, though, I'm not sure that I agree with the assumption that these mounds were made for the purpose of either a) removing field stones, or b) marking property lines.

First, I have been doing some reading and found the following paper insightful as nobody really definitively knows the originator of these piles. Overcoming the Ambiguity of a Rock Pile

Additionally, I made the trek out there yesterday and did some more inspecting.

First, here is a small pile of rocks from the corner of a field on another area of the property:

View attachment 2048095


As you can see, these have been haphazardly tossed or pushed to the perimeter of the field, which totally makes sense. The pile does not look organized and hand stacked, and certainly does not contain a giant stone that requires 2-3 men to pick it up at the top of the pile.


Upon inspecting several rock piles again, I definitely noticed that they appear in a random organization, with some as close as ~15 ft from each other. This could not mark a consistent property line.

Finally, after viewing one of the largest piles, I noticed something rather interesting about several of the rocks:


View attachment 2048098


These rocks have clear water erosion features which would indicate to me that they came, not from the surrounding field (which is still full of stones, btw), but the branch at the bottom of the hill which is filled with similar rocks. This would actually be a very difficult task by hand because it is around 0.1 miles at the closest and a very steep climb!


Anyway, that's about it. I'm not saying they are prehistoric, but I am saying that I don't believe they were either intended to mark property lines or to clear the local field.

Hey Mayberry90, one possibility that hasn't been mentioned in the thread is that the "haphazard rock piles" may just be the result of the trees sprouting up through rocky soil. This happens commonly here in rocky northern NJ. The haphazard piles around the tree look like a concentration of rocks, but it's really just rocks pushed up through the dirt into the air where rain can wash them off. No human intervention necessary.
I'm just submitting this as a possibility - I'm no expert. (You'd likely need a geologist and/or archeologist on-site to get solid answers).

As for your rocks with erosion, keep in mind that over the thousands/millions of years those rocks have existed they could have come in contact with water in many different places as the earth's forces moved them around. Don't assume the only way they'd erode is in the stream that is 0.1mile away.
Again - just submitting this for consideration.

Overall I'd say: keep an open mind, and subscribe to Occam's razor ("the simplest explanation is usually the best one."). Don't form a hypothesis and then look for anything to prove it.
- Brian

 

[mayberry90]

Hey Mayberry90, one possibility that hasn't been mentioned in the thread is that the "haphazard rock piles" may just be the result of the trees sprouting up through rocky soil. This happens commonly here in rocky northern NJ. The haphazard piles around the tree look like a concentration of rocks, but it's really just rocks pushed up through the dirt into the air where rain can wash them off. No human intervention necessary.
I'm just submitting this as a possibility - I'm no expert. (You'd likely need a geologist and/or archeologist on-site to get solid answers).

As for your rocks with erosion, keep in mind that over the thousands/millions of years those rocks have existed they could have come in contact with water in many different places as the earth's forces moved them around. Don't assume the only way they'd erode is in the stream that is 0.1mile away.
Again - just submitting this for consideration.

Overall I'd say: keep an open mind, and subscribe to Occam's razor ("the simplest explanation is usually the best one."). Don't form a hypothesis and then look for anything to prove it.
- Brian

Good point. I am definitely keeping an open mind and have no idea, they very well could have been made by settlers. I was just confused as to why it was totally dismissed out of hand as "impossible", that Indians never made anything out of rock, when the more I research the more clearly that's not the case. No idea about my location, though. Will keep investigating, I love a good mystery!

As far as your idea about the piles forming from trees, I really doubt that. There are also many areas where the rocks are neatly hand stacked.

 

[brianc053]

...

As far as your idea about the piles forming from trees, I really doubt that. There are also many areas where the rocks are neatly hand stacked.

I understand what you're saying about hand-stacked stone, and I'm not talking about that.

In at least one of your pictures the rocks seemed to be centered around the base of a tree. What I was saying was that here in New Jersey I see this phenomenon all the time, and it's caused by the tree pushing up over the decades (sometimes centuries) through very rocky ground. In your area this may not (or it might) contribute to some of what you're seeing - it's just a possibility to consider.
Here are a couple of pictures from my side yard. They are not the greatest examples - there are more significant ones with more/larger rocks in other locations - but I ran outside to take these pictures very quickly.

 

[Charl]

Very interesting! I have become quite fascinated by this debate. I realize that these exist all over New England and their origins are debatable, but why that should automatically apply to other regions of the US doesn't make much sense to me.

Bennet Young wrote a book called Prehistoric Men of Kentucky and on page 96 he begins a chapter called Stone Structure in Nelson County. In this chapter he outlines 2 parallel stone walls which formed an L shape, over 400 feet in total length. The owner of this property swore it existed when his father moved there in 1777.

Here is a link, it's worth checking out:
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Prehistoric_Men_of_Kentucky/z6cAk5SiLt4C?hl=en&gbpv=1

Also, on page 28, in the chapter called STONE GRAVE BURIALS, Mr. Young clearly describes shallow graves with piles of small rocks 2-4 feet high and 6-12 feet in diameter.

I'm very confused as to why these descriptions exist and yet so many seem to dismiss them out of hand as impossible?

I plan to go back soon and take some pics of other things, for example a half circle of stones I didn't yet photograph.

I’m not suggesting your site is related to CSL, just wanted to point out there is a rethinking going on, and it’s not just New England states. We’ve long known there were so-called hilltop “Indian forts” in the SE, walls built of stone. You mentioned the stone snake effigy, and there seem to be some snake effigy walls here in the Northeast as well. I’ve long leaned conservative in the sense of feeling settler activity was a more likely explanation for the cairns and walls. But it may be a case of separating the settler from the native. Here are early dates returned via OSL dating of a Pa. site:

Ceremonial Stone Landscapes

In 2021 the WCLV hosted a presentation on Ceremonial Stone Landscapes; this page provides follow up to field testing that was done following that presentation. The 2023 Lehigh Valley Watershed Conf…

watershedcoalitionlv.org