robert marx's clue on the 1641 fleets location of loss

[Magoopeter]

attachments link

It is these attachments i can not open?

 

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[Alexandre]

 

[ARC]

Any "more" to this... Info... a full version ? ? ?

 

[Alexandre]

"I think but rather I know" that I have the full Dominica map, yes.

Any "more" to this... Info... a full version ? ? ?

View attachment 1772128

 

[Jolly Mon]

I don't know about the Presa, but that multiple ships of the 1641 fleet met their demise somewhere North of St. Augustine (and North of Amelia Island) is a given.

 

[ARC]

I don't know about the Presa, but that multiple ships of the 1641 fleet met their demise somewhere North of St. Augustine (and North of Amelia Island) is a given.

Refering to September hurricane ?

4 of the five lost were Naos... one was a Patache... but it was found by another Patache several days later with some survivors still on board... it was stated that the other including a priest tried to swim to shore and were eaten by sharks.

No mention of eiether Patache name ... thus far anyway... I remember the story but no details concerning ships names... and after a few deep searches cannot find Docs that state any either.

 

[ivan salis]

with the fact that duro list only 1 patache as being lost --the Presa - and the fact that a patache was found by another patache sent from cuba as a rescue vessel * -- the survivors of the patache that was found said that other vessels sank within visual range of them --ie they saw them sink ---they had to have struck something to break their hull -- pottery shard from a olive jar neck with the DR marking that matches up exactly with the type found on the conception ( other 1641 fleet vessels would have likely been carrying olives as well) HAS been found at a location that I personally know of roughly near the 30 degree area historically listed as their place of loss -- and the clues fit together just fine … more info than that will cost $$$

 

[ARC]

with the fact that duro list only 1 patache as being lost --the Presa - and the fact that a patache was found by another patache sent from cuba as a rescue vessel * -- the survivors of the patache that was found said that other vessels sank within visual range of them --ie they saw them sink ---they had to have struck something to break their hull -- pottery shard from a olive jar neck with the DR marking that matches up exactly with the type found on the conception ( other 1641 fleet vessels would have likely been carrying olives as well) HAS been found at a location that I personally know of roughly near the 30 degree area historically listed as their place of loss -- and the clues fit together just fine … more info than that will cost $$$

Ivan... with all due respect my friend...

Why are you interested / consumed with The la Presa's location ?

This ship is "trivial".. IMO

 

[ARC]

Ivan... I think you would find much interest in "The Journal of Maarten Harpertszoon Tromp".

I did.

In this is the account of your "mystery ship patache".

 

[Magoopeter]

The Presa did it sink or not?
Were the survivors from the Presa?
Were the survivors taken of a floating ship?
Was it taken in tow?
Did that ship then sink two days later?
If survivors were picked up from a floating ship 5 leagues offshore why did some try and swim ashore?
Amelia island is not 5 leagues offshore?
Are there offshore wrecks sunk by the hurricane?

 

[ARC]

The Presa did it sink or not?
Were the survivors from the Presa?
Were the survivors taken of a floating ship?
Was it taken in tow?
Did that ship then sink two days later?
If survivors were picked up from a floating ship 5 leagues offshore why did some try and swim ashore?
Amelia island is not 5 leagues offshore?
Are there offshore wrecks sunk by the hurricane?

Wellll.... there are some conflicting accounts of this ship.

 

[ivan salis]

where is 30 degrees located at? -- what is there about 13 miles offshore in that area that a ship might hit to damage its hull and it hang up on for sometime before floating free off it ? (5 leagues at 2.6 miles per league = 13 miles)---think think think…

 

[WaveJunky757]

Offshore sand bar off Jacksonville/Fernandina Beach? Couldn’t find anything via google except tons of artificial reefs. I haven’t checked google earth yet.

 

[Jason in Enid]

Offshore sand bar off Jacksonville/Fernandina Beach? Couldn’t find anything via google except tons of artificial reefs. I haven’t checked google earth yet.

Thats because there is nothing that distance from shore that could even remotely be a hazard.

 

[PetesPockets55]

Thats because there is nothing that distance from shore that could even remotely be a hazard.

And how do you know this?

Because I'm not familiar with the area I did a search "Water depth 13 miles off shore from St. Augustine"
This is what I found.

From the NOAA Nautical charts.

" 332 U.S. Coast Pilot 4, Chapter 10  01 DEC 2019


ENC - US4FL80M
Chart - 11484
(60) From Ponce de Leon Inlet to False Cape the coast is
straight. The 5-fathom curve is about 0.5 mile offshore
for a distance of 24 miles. Beyond this distance dangerous
shoals and wrecks and numerous fish havens will be
found up to 15 miles offshore.
(61) Ponce de Leon Inlet (see chart 11485) is 53
miles southward of St. Augustine Light and 41 miles
northwestward of Cape Canaveral Light. It is used by
both recreational and small commercial vessels bound for
New Smyrna Beach or Daytona Beach as well as others
entering for an anchorage."

While this area may not be the exact location being discussed it shows things are lurking up to 15 miles offshore in this general vicinity of Fl.

 

[ivan salis]

oh its there...LOL

 

[Jolly Mon]

Not sure what's so cloak and dagger unless the vessel had a draught of 50 feet?


soundings in fathoms

 

[ARC]

Not sure what's so cloak and dagger unless the vessel had a draught of 50 feet?

View attachment 1778898
soundings in fathoms

Average galleon had an average draft of 15-20 feet with the largest and loaded being as much around 30.

When talking about the draft of a vessel so many things factor in... even down to the type of water it is floating in.

For example... two identical boats in size and weight sit at different heights in different types of water... like fresh VS salt. etc.

A ship with a 30 draught... could easily strike ground in 50 ish feet due to wave height... when ship drops into the trough of the wave it can hit.

 

[ARC]

 

[Jason in Enid]

OK, well scratch whatever I said. I dont know why, but the chart I looked at last time showed the depths 13 miles off the coast as being over 300 ft deep and dropping fast. When I went to this chart, it does show shallow depths with sandbars that likely shift.

So yes, 50ft would be extremely shallow water for a ship during a storm. They didnt get driven onto shores, they got bounced along the bottom until their keels broke.