Revolutionary War Buttons I.D. Authentic or Reproduction Help Please

[History Detective]

Can anyone please help with the identification of these what I believe are revolutionary war buttons? I bought them from someone who didn't have a clue ( like me ) as to what they were other than possibly American Rev. War related. They are framed under glass so I can't get to the backs unless I dismantle the frame which I may end up doing if need be...
Also, can anyone help determine if they are reproductions or the real thing...
If authentic any idea on value? Thanks so much in advance!

 

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[Iron Patch]

Put it this way... if having a display of reproductions means nothing to you, you might as well break them out.... because it would be a great surprise if they are real. Pictures of the back would most likely seal the deal .....if there's any hope to begin with.

 

[smokeythecat]

If the shanks are generally a little wedge with a hole drilled, they're new.

 

[History Detective]

Hello and thanks for your reply! You are absolutely right! I w agree that taking apart the display is the only way to get to the bottom of the mystery...
They are included w/ a framed and matted signed lithograph of the Rev. War Philadelphia sinking and the seller thought maybe they came from the ship but he wasn't sure what the origin of the display was...I believe him, he was not a dealer in antiques and he didn't sell them based on their authenticity but more for the litho included in the frame. I know the ship is in the Smithsonian Museum so I highly doubt they could have come from it... but they could have been put together by a collector w/ the frame( there is a personal photo of an unknown person w/ the Philadelphia ship in the frame).
I will take the buttons out and post pictures of the backs today...!
I realize the difference between reproductions and authentic is crucial...not for the value but for the sake of history!
Thanks!

 

[History Detective]

Thanks so much for your help, I really appreciate it.
I will post pictures of the backs today.

 

[CC Hunter]

The condition and color of these buttons is entirely inconsistent with what would generally be expected for normal appearance in recovered pewter from typical dry ground conditions. In the case of 200+ year old non-dug pewter, the coloration here on these examples would also not be an acceptable match. The only possible scenario for such condition and color on original pewter, would be recoveries from underwater.

The first button, featuring an upright eagle design, is a style that is slightly after the American Revolution, and original buttons of this design date around 1792 -1796 or so, having been attributed to Wayne's Legion of American forces. The next two buttons, King's 8th and 60th Regiment of Foot, are styles attributed to British troops of the American Revolutionary War period.

A look at the back of these buttons, and careful analysis of any mold seam detail, and type of shank (loop), will be the positive proof. The many later reproductions and copies of 18th Century pewter buttons, generally fail in providing an exact match for the correct mold seam and type of shank. Many of the original British buttons of the Revolutionary War period, made of cast pewter, have shanks fashioned of steel wire. Most American made pewter buttons of the Revolutionary War period and following few decades into the 1820's, have heavy cast shanks made of pewter. As earlier stated, the original period pewter buttons will not be seen with a smooth drilled hole in the shank. These original pewter shanks have the hole cast in place. A drilled hole in a pewter shank is quite certain evidence of more recent manufacture with pewter type buttons.

CC Hunter

 

[Iron Patch]

Thanks so much for your help, I really appreciate it.
I will post pictures of the backs today.

Curious to see because they actually do look pretty good from the front, and like CC says water finds can come out in similar condition, and if that was the case here probably a light cleaning on top of that. Part of the reason I find them suspect is being all equal condition, and basically mint condition for found buttons. If they are real I'd sure love to be diving and getting the rest of what was there.

 

[History Detective]

Hello CC, Thanks for all your info. It sounds like you know your stuff. The buttons presentation with the framed litho. is whats got me curious because someone spent at least a few hundred dollars on the framing of the overall piece...not that this makes them real it just seems like a lot to spend on replicas. There are also, two other "artifacts in the frame...a large musket ball with some i.d. numbers written on it and a large musket flint...
A cold water recovery could explain their condition...
Obviously, the buttons are really the only artifacts/replicas in the frame that can determined with any certainty.
I will try to get them out of the frame and post pictures of the backs...

 

[Iron Patch]

My gut had already turned to lean towards real, and I think I'm even more in that direction now. Hopefully you can get them out without ruining the frame. I don't really base my feelings on it being a few hundred to put together, because it's quite possible someone would not want to spend another grand (?) to add a few buttons.

 

[Doubter in MD]

My gut had already turned to lean towards real, and I think I'm even more in that direction now. Hopefully you can get them out without ruining the frame. I don't really base my feelings on it being a few hundred to put together, because it's quite possible someone would not want to spend another grand (?) to add a few buttons.

I agree. The buttons may be reproductions but someone went to an awful lot of trouble to make this display. It is probably worth money either way. Obviously it's worth a LOT more if the artifacts are genuine but I don't think I'd break the frame open unless I could do it without causing damage.

 

[History Detective]

Thanks! I started last night dismantling the frame and should have them out today...I'll post some pictures of the backs.
If you can still take a look I would sure appreciate it! This is not my area of experience for sure, but its a definite mystery that I would like to solve with your and anyone's help...

 

[History Detective]

You are right...someone went thru a whole lot of trouble and expense for replicas..,kinda reminds me of the Oak Island Money Pit in Nova Scotia...

 

[G.A.P.metal]

Here`s the same buttons...mine are replicas.. Iron Patch IDed they for me..i had high hopes too...hope your are real.
Gary

 

[HutSiteDigger]

You are making me want a Cig now GAP

 

[History Detective]

Hi! Just got the frame apart...the buttons have some paper slightly glued around the shanks where they were attached to the backing of the frame...the back so far seem to be looking like your pics...also, there is a "12" engraved/stamped on the back of one of them... Looking like repos to me...I'll post pictures..

 

[Iron Patch]

G.A.P. Metal, sure is weird you have the same two!

 

[Iron Patch]

Hi! Just got the frame apart...the buttons have some paper slightly glued around the shanks where they were attached to the backing of the frame...the back so far seem to be looking like your pics...also, there is a "12" engraved/stamped on the back of one of them... Looking like repos to me...I'll post pictures..

yep, sadly it sure does sound like it. Tried to hold out some hope but in the end they are what they are!

 

[History Detective]

Pictures of backs and fronts of buttons...plus a musket Ball in same picture frame...Musket Ball has "Revolution War" written in black ink on white applied background.
I guess its verdict time...

 

[G.A.P.metal]

G.A.P. Metal, sure is weird you have the same two!

IP
i thought so too...weird
Gary

 

[Iron Patch]

Pictures of backs and fronts of buttons...plus a musket Ball in same picture frame...can't make out the writing on back
I guess its verdict time...

Hope you didn't hurt the frame. (because it's all bad news)