Researching an engraved Revolutionary War powder horn

[AUhills]

So I'm always searching for different treasures whether it's digging them from the ground or browsing the local classifieds and I've just acquired something I'm pretty excited about. This powder horn is to date the most fascinating Revolutionary War artifact I've come across and my reason for posting it is I want to find out as much as possible about it. I am particularly interested in finding out more about the individual that engraved and carried this horn during the war. My expertise on Revolutionary War artifacts is limited and google searching the name engraved in the horn hasn't been as productive as I had hoped. Any input is much appreciated!

 

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[releventchair]

Don't let me cool your ardor...
Many replica horns exist. And living history/re-en-actors enjoy them thoroughly.
If not lazy I'd dig one out for pictures of forts and such mapped on one that a builder sold me with a rifle he'd built. The extended "ear" on the plug end that was used to tie too in the 1600's era was broken and removed. Changing the appearance of what era it may have been copied/influenced from. (Though still a replica).

The oldest horns I've handles were in bad shape. Time on those keratin bodies is hard on them without just the right storage conditions.
Cracks,worm holes , as much as half the horn gone ect. But ...That can be faked too.

Another horn I possess and used for quite a while was found (outside the hundreds of shooters and events that made the rounds back then) in tired condition with many fine cracks. Crude staples to hold ties, an un dwelled on spout ect. that was a no frills worker. But still had personal flare in it's having been heated and partially pressed and a gunstock butt type plug.

Personal touches (and touchmarks/initials or similar) have been used to find early makers. At least a couple of the more popular ones.


And...To muddy the waters more , British often carried rolled cartridges in cartridge boxes. Pre-rolled paper cylinders with powder and ball. Bite of the end ,pour powder...I'll let whoevers interested look into how they were used.

Point being , British troops did not always carry powder horns. Era will figure into that ,but again cartridge box use vs horn during what campaign/era...
That said here's the muddy of a possible British officers horn.
https://mesda.org/item/collections/powder-horn/2577/

 

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[AUhills]

Thanks, I appreciate all the info. Trust me I hear you about all the fakes out there and I'm no expert on powder horns specifically but I do deal in and handle a lot of antiquities and see fakes almost daily. I consider myself pretty good at spotting red flags when it comes to false aging vs. authentic aging and this has several indicators of proper aging with 0 red flags or any indications of modern restoration or additions. For something this special though I always refer to experts more qualified than me so I've now shown pictures to three different experts so far that all believe it is the real deal, and now for a formal evaluation and final conclusion Christie's experts are going to examine the powder horn in person and have the final say. Fingers Crossed, if everything checks out and once the research on this Serjt W. McAllister is concluded they want to feature it in one of their upcoming auctions.







Check out these 2 links too, here is another example of a British powder horn you will find interesting. It was carried by a Red coat in the 47th Regiment of Foot and was at Bunker Hill!
Link: https://www.geographicus.com/P/AntiqueMap/BostonPowderHorn-1775
Link: https://collections.leventhalmap.org/search/commonwealth:q524n3363

 

[Force_of_Iron]

I looked at the documented horns I remembered and were looking for and while similar were not this horn.

This looks ok to me but as others have said extremely good fakes exist.

This sgt you are looking for is a good lead. If he was a prisoner perhaps he made it with the mind to please one of his captors. Perhaps he gave it to someone.

Perhaps it was made by some tory and given to him.

 

[sprailroad]

Interesting thread. Just a thought fella's, the spelling of "Serjt", as being of a British spelling, well.... may not mean the powder horn was not that of a British soldier, since many "Americans" were English themselves. The owner having something of a what I'll call a "Dual Citizenship", in a manner of speaking, choosing to be American and no longer under British rule instead. Only a thought.

 

[Red-Coat]

I'm waiting a reply from my historian contact. Hope he has some encouraging information for you. If he has, it's not going to be proof of course, but hopefully you may reach a position where you have sufficient circumstantial evidence to build a credible back story for the horn. If you do, I'll be delighted for you.

 

[Red-Coat]

Hi @AUhills

This was the interim reply from my contact:

I'll be happy to delve into the muster roll information for you over the next few days.

In the meantime, I should note that technically, the 17th Regiment of Foot was a single-battalion regiment at this time (as were most in the British Army), so the first battalion signifier is unnecessary. I realize the TNA organizes their catalog entries in that fashion, which is an artifact of those beloved Victorians.

York County is probably a reference to York County, Pennsylvania. The 17th prisoners from Stony Point were shuffled around quite a bit by the rebels, traveling (if I recall correctly) through Allentown and Lebanon, PA, en route to their final destination at York. The entire regiment (with its light and grenadier companies serving the respective 1st Light and Grenadier Composite Battalions) was present throughout the entire Philadelphia Campaign. The 17th Regiment was also quartered in Trenton in December 1776 at the end of Howe's nearly-successful pursuit of Washington across the Jerseys, just before the unfortunate Trenton-Princeton Campaign. The Stony Point prisoners remained in captivity until January 1781.

That is all from memory: I will check my notes as opportunity allows. The entire pandemic unpleasantness has me even more occupied than usual, so I apologize for the delay.

I hope you are staying safe and well: I would enjoy seeing more photographs of the powder horn. [I only sent him one picture, showing the name inscription and the ship outside Philadelphia but will now send more assuming you have no objection].

If the above holds good, for this to be a horn relating to McAllister of the 17th, it would need to be the case that he was in possession of the horn after his capture in 1779 and was adding further work to it during those times... or maybe even was able to make it during periods of boredom in captivity. I don't know how likely this is. The 1778 date would then have to be a 'nostalgic' one, not necessarily reflecting his actual presence in York County in that year. Again, I don't know how likely that is, but it stretches the credibility somewhat.

I'll keep you posted as and when.

 

[AUhills]

Thanks for the update Red-Coat, looking forward to seeing what he finds in the muster roll info. Feel free to show him more pictures or link him to the video. This looks like it is going to have a really interesting story behind it if it really was Serj't McAllister's. There will still be some research to do on exactly where the 17th was & when they were there even if it is confirmed he was actually a "W" McAllister. But so long as it is actually real there is always an explanation, I feel we are getting closer to solving this mystery one way or the other. I know Christie's is literally going to look at this under a microscope too, so if it's not authentic we will find out soon. Luckily though I got such a good deal on the lot this came in I've already made a healthy profit just re-selling the flintlocks so the way I see it I can't lose and I'm having a lot of fun playing "History/Artifact Detective" with this powder horn.

 

[pigeonman]

it looks good to me and most certainly like to own it.

 

[fyrffytr1]

I have absolutely zero knowledge about powder horns but I have an observation and a few question. First, it appears that the lettering around the base of the horn (name etc.) is a fancy, almost script type while the rest of the lettering and images seem a little cruder so could the horn have been presented to Sgt. McAllister in 1778 engraved with the script looking lettering and then he added the rest during the war? And, my last question is why would there be a US flag on A British powder horn or a British flag on an American powder horn?
Again, I am a naive amateur on things like this so, please educate me.
In closing, have you considered contacting Don Troiani about it? He has co-authored several books on the Revolutionary War.

[email protected]

[url=http://dontroiani.com/]Don Troiani | Official Website[/url]

 

[releventchair]

I have absolutely zero knowledge about powder horns but I have an observation and a few question. First, it appears that the lettering around the base of the horn (name etc.) is a fancy, almost script type while the rest of the lettering and images seem a little cruder so could the horn have been presented to Sgt. McAllister in 1778 engraved with the script looking lettering and then he added the rest during the war? And, my last question is why would there be a US flag on A British powder horn or a British flag on an American powder horn?
Again, I am a naive amateur on things like this so, please educate me.
In closing, have you considered contacting Don Troiani about it? He has co-authored several books on the Revolutionary War.

[email protected]

[url=http://dontroiani.com/]Don Troiani | Official Website[/url]

Great questions. And if we could ask the person or persons who carried it in it's origins we'd sure know more!

A flag could indicate a forts possession at the time.
A map on a horn for example.
Would be good to know if a fort was encountered...
Yet forts changed hands too.

The o.p.'s horn is a busy one.
One area shows a drum (representing what,war?). Above the drum are two flags.
Intriguing (to me anyways).
I don't mean to detract from the rest of the horn...But Philly in 1777-78 was under two flags in two years .Or depending on ones perspective , two flags in a year, or even in a weeks time....Twice.

Howe viewed Philly accurately as "the rebels capitol" and took British possession of it. Which in the tradition of warfare at the time should have ended matters. Which it did not however.
In 1778 , Howe's successor Clinton abandon Philly.
Yet another change of the flag.

If the exampled horn's owner had been scratching out flags as often they were replaced over Philly those couple years....It would be a messy horn!

 

[Red-Coat]

Just to let you know that I gently 'nudged' my historian contact a couple of days ago, but he hasn't yet replied. I hope he's well, considering the current climate of health uncertainty.

 

[FreeBirdTim]

I know nothing about Rev War powder horns, but I do know something about fake scrimshaw pieces. Many times they will put a date on the piece to "prove" it's really old. Not saying that's the case with your powder horn, but that's a red flag for me.

 

[gunsil]

Well I guess you won't be back here again! No great loss, don't really need such insults around here anyways. To say that "I already have much more qualified experts to help me with that and deal with more rare & valuable antiquities than most here could dream of handling" is extremely insulting as many here have fantastic collections and/or items. To say we couldn't even dream of handling such things is kind of over the hill elitist don't you think? Enjoy your horn, I hope it makes you very happy.

 

[gunsil]

A man can only put up with so much ignorance. Trying to do research and share history, not debate with a bunch of ignants...

Right back at ya sonny!!

 

[insontis]

This is an interesting thread. Seems to have grown even more so recently

Carry on

 

[FreeBirdTim]

My expertise on Revolutionary War artifacts is LIMITEDand google searching the name engraved in the horn hasn't been as productive as I had hoped. ANY input is much appreciated!

You got my input. Methinks doth protest too much. I'll stand by my other post. A date on scrimshaw (or a powder horn) is a big RED flag.

 

[FreeBirdTim]

Who confirmed it is genuine? Let's get a name here, so we can check their credentials and expertise on Rev War artifacts.

 

[FreeBirdTim]

Another thing that bothers me is that most of it is beautifully carved, but the name and date look like chicken scratch. Ruins the whole look of the piece. Just my ignorant opinion!

 

[trdking]

Wow was checking back to this thread to see how things were going. I would have to say South!

 

[FreeBirdTim]

Well, he wanted input, but didn't like what he got! LOL! He turned ugly fast, so he'll get zero positive input now.