refiner question

[trdhrdr007]

As I stated before I'm not complaining simply stating facts. You recommended a refiner as the best place to send items to be refined. Last I checked this is still a free country & you are entitled to that opinion. The flip side to that is I'm entitled to state my opinion. My opinion is that you shouldn't make that recommendation without disclosing that the refiner in question routinely shows a 3-5% melt loss. I supplied the pertinent information bacuase you didn't. After claiming I was either uneducated or confused you finally posted this:

Ok so you knew that already... why are you complaining then alot of places have hidden fees or take % to "cover cost"

The second half of that pretty much says it all.

 

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[creeper71]

As I stated before I'm not complaining simply stating facts. You recommended a refiner as the best place to send items to be refined. Last I checked this is still a free country & you are entitled to that opinion. The flip side to that is I'm entitled to state my opinion. My opinion is that you shouldn't make that recommendation without disclosing that the refiner in question routinely shows a 3-5% melt loss. I supplied the pertinent information bacuase you didn't. After claiming I was either uneducated or confused you finally posted this:

Ok so you knew that already... why are you complaining then alot of places have hidden fees or take % to "cover cost"

The second half of that pretty much says it all.

your point is what? your not complaining about a 3-5 % ...what are you doing then? you made it sound like you didn't understand how it worked when you sent to get melted.. but you knew exactly how much precious melt you had... I never said the place you sent to wasn't a good or bad place..I never dealt with them.. but what I do know is midwest doesn't have hidden fees but they do take 10% of your total money...

 

[trdhrdr007]

your point is what?.............but what I do know is midwest doesn't have hidden fees but they do take 10% of your total money...

Let me spell it out for you......the 3-5% melt loss IS a hidden fee.

 

[creeper71]

your point is what?.............but what I do know is midwest doesn't have hidden fees but they do take 10% of your total money...

Let me spell it out for you......the 3-5% melt loss IS a hidden fee.

yeah an you didn't know that? I said in a few post back that was the case

 

[trdhrdr007]

I'm not the person back peddling & changing their tune. First you defend the 3-5% melt loss as part of the refining process:

I'm not understanding your reason, cause you will have melt loss from inpurities

When you see I'm not buying into that you post:

a lot of places have hidden fees or take % to "cover cost"

That would seem to imply that you understand that the 3-5% is a hidden fee which has been my point all along. Then you follow that up with your very next post where you claim they don't have hidden fees:

but what I do know is midwest doesn't have hidden fees

In your last post you directly contradict your preceeding post while trying to imply that I'm the one that just doesn't get it:

yeah an you didn't know that? I said in a few post back that was the case

I think the series of posts speak for themselves.

 

[nvradar]

YIKES!!! I think I won't be using ARA anymore. So melting my placer gold fines with a cutting torch doesn't get all the impurities out? I didn't add any jewelry to it just gold. I just don't think the weight loss I had was proper. Thanks again guys. NVRADAR

 

[creeper71]

I'm not the person back peddling & changing their tune. First you defend the 3-5% melt loss as part of the refining process:

I'm not understanding your reason, cause you will have melt loss from inpurities

When you see I'm not buying into that you post:

a lot of places have hidden fees or take % to "cover cost"

That would seem to imply that you understand that the 3-5% is a hidden fee which has been my point all along. Then you follow that up with your very next post where you claim they don't have hidden fees:

but what I do know is midwest doesn't have hidden fees

In your last post you directly contradict your preceeding post while trying to imply that I'm the one that just doesn't get it:

yeah an you didn't know that? I said in a few post back that was the case

I think the series of posts speak for themselves.

yeah it does speak for itself ..you complain about the hidden fees when someone says something you don't like you belittle... here I will spell out all my post in one sentence.... IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE WAY THEY OPERATE THEN DON'T SELL AN STOP COMPLAINING!!

 

[Randyd]

NVRADAR

Melting your placer gold with a torch will remove mercury (watchout!), leaves and lint.
Other impurities like silver, lead and copper will just melt.

Go to http://webpages.charter.net/kwilliams00/bcftp/bcftp.htm and click on "Melting and Smelting"
to see how to SMELT gold to purify it.

Randyd

 

[nvradar]

Thanks for the info Randyd, just what I wanted to know NVRADAR

 

[EARL51]

Funny when I bitched about not getting stones returned from ARA, it was "oh no they wouldn't do that". And the idea of cutting up the jewelery and coins was what I should have done. When I called, it sounded like BS, but my fault for being lazy about it. As the price goes up the greedier some people get.

 

[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

I sent some gold rings off to Midwest a while back. There were no stones to be removed - just gold. Took about two weeks to complete the entire process and I thought they were about $50 off from the total I had calculated up several times. Of course, the spot price moves up and down and I think they use spot for the day they begin the smelting process. I guess the stuff might not have been EXACTLY the karat they were marked as I have read the only time you can get a guaranteed purity with a hallmark are the ones marked "KP" for "karat plumb". Still, I think the total was off by around $50 even after they had taken their 10% cut. But it's like JD said - you really don't know exactly what goes on with refining unless you stand there and observe the entire process from start to finish.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

I sent some gold rings off to Midwest a while back. There were no stones to be removed - just gold. Took about two weeks to complete the entire process and I thought they were about $50 off from the total I had calculated up several times. Of course, the spot price moves up and down and I think they use spot for the day they begin the smelting process. I guess the stuff might not have been EXACTLY the karat they were marked as I have read the only time you can get a guaranteed purity with a hallmark are the ones marked "KP" for "karat plumb". Still, I think the total was off by around $50 even after they had taken their 10% cut. But it's like JD said - you really don't know exactly what goes on with refining unless you stand there and observe the entire process from start to finish.

All refineries use the spot price on the actual melt down date......

 

[lookindown]

I sent some gold rings off to Midwest a while back. There were no stones to be removed - just gold. Took about two weeks to complete the entire process and I thought they were about $50 off from the total I had calculated up several times. Of course, the spot price moves up and down and I think they use spot for the day they begin the smelting process. I guess the stuff might not have been EXACTLY the karat they were marked as I have read the only time you can get a guaranteed purity with a hallmark are the ones marked "KP" for "karat plumb". Still, I think the total was off by around $50 even after they had taken their 10% cut. But it's like JD said - you really don't know exactly what goes on with refining unless you stand there and observe the entire process from start to finish.

Mine is always a little low when I send it to the refiners too. Its more than I can get anywhere else so I put up with it. Like you say, Im not positive about the value of the stuff I send in so I cant say they are doing anything wrong. Im happy with what I get.

 

[billjustbill]

I'm not the person back peddling & changing their tune. First you defend the 3-5% melt loss as part of the refining process:

I'm not understanding your reason, cause you will have melt loss from inpurities

When you see I'm not buying into that you post:

a lot of places have hidden fees or take % to "cover cost"

That would seem to imply that you understand that the 3-5% is a hidden fee which has been my point all along. Then you follow that up with your very next post where you claim they don't have hidden fees:

but what I do know is midwest doesn't have hidden fees

In your last post you directly contradict your preceeding post while trying to imply that I'm the one that just doesn't get it:

yeah an you didn't know that? I said in a few post back that was the case

I think the series of posts speak for themselves.

yeah it does speak for itself ..you complain about the hidden fees when someone says something you don't like you belittle... here I will spell out all my post in one sentence.... IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE WAY THEY OPERATE THEN DON'T SELL AN STOP COMPLAINING!!

Hi Creeper,

You have to realize that posting here has it reasons. Many people who send in their gold and silver are more times disappointed about the return than those that are completely happy.... Sure, the refiners "Say" they pay market price less 2% for gold and 10% for silver, but when they say that the silver batch assayed out at 72%, YOU ARE NOT EVEN GETTING THE 90% they say they pay.....Who's going to know, except for those that are the truly crooked refiners??

A forum and a thread like this one offers a place to vent AND a place to see what refiners do to the "Unknowing" ..... When you see a bunch of members saying the same thing, it's time to consider using another company, but doing that is as risky as staying with the ones that appear to be allegedly crooked.

I've learned THREE things in the three shipments I've sent....

1. Send small batches, with pictures included, that are verified to be the Kt. they are stamped. There's less "room" to have weights "disappear" and/or skimmed off the top.

2. Cut it up and take out your own stones before you send it. Even telling the refiner in big red-lettered writing to return the stones doesn' prevent refiners saying they "Made a mistake" and the silver's stones are gone.... On the second time I sent in a batch of silver, ARA paid me $50 for "Missing Stones", but honestly, the necklace I wanted the 1-1/2" piece of red Carneilan was worth more than that, alone. Later, I found out that ARA pulls the stones on silver jewelry, because silver is fire-melted not like their gold processing, so what happened to all the stones? My GUT feeling was that the jewelry was sold intact, but ONLY they know for sure.... Plus, after recieving the check in the mail with nothing else, I had to make a special phone call to them to get that much....Thus, Make it truly scrap metals. You keep the quality of stones you know the jewelry had and you get the closest actual weight to know what the refiner is really doing....

3. Keep the shipments single to one type, either gold is photographed and divided into its stamped/tested karat category, OR just send only silver.

My next batch will be one of those that I cut up the jewelry. I've always sent pictures to ARA when I send in my separated metals of both different karats of gold, but also pictures of the silver....it hasn't made any difference in my feelings for being paid for what was there....

This next time, I'm removing my own stones, and take pictures of the jewelry in after cutting them in half. Then, I'm sending one batch to one company and one to another, without telling them what I've done........

I'll post the results to show what happened....that way EVERYBODY on this forum wins. Except, hopefully, the crooked refiners that are operating out there...

What other refiner would you say could be trustworthy enough to be that second company, and why?

 

[lookindown]

Do you need to separate your gold by karat when sending it in? I thought they just processed it all together and paid you for the pure gold that came out. No need to separate.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Lookindown, You do not need seperate it, they melt it all down together, then they check the assay value of it and the total weight and pay out according to the spot price of gold on the day it was melted, not the day it was mailed, or even the day they receive it...

Have to remember you have a lot of people who are sending their gold, assuming they know the true K-weight and value of it when most times they do not, they are only guessing...

 

[billjustbill]

Do you need to separate your gold by karat when sending it in? I thought they just processed it all together and paid you for the pure gold that came out. No need to separate.

It's just one way to support what was sent in. If you take it to one of those "Buy Your GOLD for almost nothing" places, and they test/verify it before making you a low-ball-offer of maybe 30% of market, before sending it to a refiner, you at least know what you are sending the refiner. When the refiner comes back and says the batch produced about 32% gold, instead of a bit lower of 53.8% for 14kt, having it documented at least gives you something to make them reconsider if they know "you know" what should be coming to you....

You've got to wonder how long and how much undissolved gold is sitting in the bottom of the solution that the gold is dissolved in.....when they come back with an answer of, "It produced only 32% of what you sent in..... That kind of return ISN'T ANY BETTER than selling it to the locals.....plus you're out the costs of time and Registered/Insured mail costs for sending it to the Refiner.....

People think that "Gold" is going to save them if the market crashes.... If the current "Gut Feeling" is giving you a sense of being cheated, what will the guy trying to use gold to retain his "past wealth" going to face I'm not saying "NO GOLD", but honestly, I'm using the current gold/silver bubble to upgrade and add to items that will make a "crash" easier to live within.

Nobody knows 100% what's ahead, but with another cold and icy forecast for the coming Winter, and varying but somewhat stable economy ahead it is going to be a trying 6 to 10 months.....

http://www.kiplinger.com/businessresource/economic_outlook/

From my viewpoint, it's a blend of several things, not just owning Precious Metals, that will help stabilize my homelife. I have gotten, or can buy those items now, should inflation hit or shortages happen, and have them in place to be used or in the process of using them now.... One example is that I just upgraded to a larger and more efficient Tier II Energy Star freezer with some gold/silver jewelry refined six months ago..... This larger 20.5 cu.ft. freezer allows me buy meats and veggies at low drought-caused or seasonal prices and have them way into next year on less than half the electricity usage.. If the electric grid goes down, I have enough solar panels with a 1500w pure seinwave inverter to run it and the fridge, if there is no gas for the generator.... If the new freezer should fail, instead of letting the company haul the old one away, since it still works, I kept and moth-balled the old one just in case....

Barring any 9/11 type event in the next few weeks, selling my scrap gold and silver will do more for me than hiding it.... All I want is a fair shake in selling it to a refinery that does what they say they do.....doing what you can to protect yourself from the greedy in as many ways as you can, whether it's gold or bumps in the economy.... Be like President Reagan: "Trust but Verify."

 

[lookindown]

Lookindown, You do not need seperate it, they melt it all down together, then they check the assay value of it and the total weight and pay out according to the spot price of gold on the day it was melted, not the day it was mailed, or even the day they receive it...

Have to remember you have a lot of people who are sending their gold, assuming they know the true K-weight and value of it when most times they do not, they are only guessing...

Thanks TreasureHunter.

 

[lookindown]

Do you need to separate your gold by karat when sending it in? I thought they just processed it all together and paid you for the pure gold that came out. No need to separate.

. It's just one way to support what was sent in. If you take it to one of those "Buy Your GOLD for almost nothing" places, and they test/verify it before making you a low-ball-offer of maybe 30% of market, before sending it to a refiner, you at least know what you are sending the refiner. When the refiner comes back and says the batch produced about 32% gold, instead of a bit lower of 53.8% for 14kt, having it documented at least gives you something to make them reconsider if they know "you know" what should be coming to you....

You've got to wonder how long and how much undissolved gold is sitting in the bottom of the solution that the gold is dissolved in.....when they come back with an answer of, "It produced only 32% of what you sent in..... That kind of return ISN'T ANY BETTER than selling it to the locals.....plus you're out the costs of time and Registered/Insured mail costs for sending it to the Refiner.....

People think that "Gold" is going to save them if the market crashes.... If the current "Gut Feeling" is giving you a sense of being cheated, what will the guy trying to use gold to retain his "past wealth" going to face I'm not saying "NO GOLD", but honestly, I'm using the current gold/silver bubble to upgrade and add to items that will make a "crash" easier to live within.

Nobody knows 100% what's ahead, but with another cold and icy forecast for the coming Winter, and varying but somewhat stable economy ahead it is going to be a trying 6 to 10 months.....

http://www.kiplinger.com/businessresource/economic_outlook/

From my viewpoint, it's a blend of several things, not just owning Precious Metals, that will help stabilize my homelife. I have gotten, or can buy those items now, should inflation hit or shortages happen, and have them in place to be used or in the process of using them now.... One example is that I just upgraded to a larger and more efficient Tier II Energy Star freezer with some gold/silver jewelry refined six months ago..... This larger 20.5 cu.ft. freezer allows me buy meats and veggies at low drought-caused or seasonal prices and have them way into next year on less than half the electricity usage.. If the electric grid goes down, I have enough solar panels with a 1500w pure seinwave inverter to run it and the fridge, if there is no gas for the generator.... If the new freezer should fail, instead of letting the company haul the old one away, since it still works, I kept and moth-balled the old one just in case....

Barring any 9/11 type event in the next few weeks, selling my scrap gold and silver will do more for me than hiding it.... All I want is a fair shake in selling it to a refinery that does what they say they do.....doing what you can to protect yourself from the greedy in as many ways as you can, whether it's gold or bumps in the economy.... Be like President Reagan: "Trust but Verify."

You make some good points