jamesbibb
Bronze Member
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2009
- Messages
- 1,554
- Reaction score
- 311
- Golden Thread
- 0
- Location
- Central Va
- Detector(s) used
- T2SE
DFX
XLT
GPX
- Primary Interest:
- Relic Hunting
Hi folks,
I havent posted in a while. Been pretty much tied up and on weekends I like to be far away from communication if I can lol. Ive been Doing some scouting at my new site, mainly just checking for iron patches and period target concentrations in likely but undocumented areas. This tactic has been good to me.
In doing this light scouting ive found a concentration of period civilian items. Many Nice flat buttons most all highly gilted, period rat tail pewters, etc.
Also got another 1857 Flying Eagle Cent. For some reason these dont excite me much- likely becasue they and the early indians are always in such bad shape. But hey Its still a nice find and they dont pop up to often.
In searching a major field I recovered what i thought was a Random Block I Confederate Button. This button is a copper front Iron back local and even with a little field damage still looks very nice.
The reason i said I though Random find was that the very next day checking for concentrations in the same area I dug another Confederate Button. This time a Sunburst NC button.
Soon as I dug this button I knew right away something was different about it. I had thought that perhaps what I had dug was a Re-enactors piece, but its look was too "period"
Once home I realized that infact my NC button was made out of pewter! With a wedge type shank. For those that arent familiar with this type of button. They were made of heavy brass and struck with soldered on eyelet shanks.
A search through my button books and online came up completly empty handed on another type of this button - be it period or Repro.
Soon as I could I sent the info and pictures to CW button expert William Leigh and to Accroutment expert Pete George.
I soon recieved a reply from William and here is what he had to say about it
"Hello James,
I have never seen anything like it. I don't have any more information to offer you from photos and it would be irresponsible and less than helpful to you to hazard a guess without seeing and handling it.
In either event, I would certainly recommend additional detecting to see what else you come up with.
Kind regards,
William"
Now showing a button to William Leigh that he has never seen speaks Volume to this recovery. I have set up to bring the button to the show in Richmond to have both gentlemen examine the button in person.
And here is what Pete had to say,
"Like William, I must say I've never seen anything like it. It is "curious" in several ways.
Here are my observations:
1- It was made by using one of the early-1864 versions of thin stamped NC buttons for making the casting-mold. (There may be some of that version from 1863 sites, but if so, I haven't heard of any -- for example, I don't know of any having been found at the Chickamauga battlefield, the Winter-of-1863-64 CS camps around Dalton GA,, or any 1861-63 VA sites.)
2- It has the look of a genuinely old relic. Its pewter body shows the distinctive characteristics of age-corroded excavated pewter.
3- Being a cast pewter button, I expected to see a mold-seam running across the button's back. But the excellent photos seem to show no mold-seam there at all.
4- The button appears to be professionally made... meaning, made by a Professional button-maker with mold-creating and metalcasting skills, rather than being a soldier-made-in-the-field crude quality button.
Related to #3 and 4... we know that some Confederate soldiers paid a "local" buttonmaker to manufacture cast pewter copies of brass military buttons which had become unavailable. The most famous example of that is probably the cast pewter SC Palmetto Guards buttons -- which have a mold-seam running across the back. Having a Professional create a button-mold is expensive. A significant quantity of buttons would have to be produced to justify that expense. In other words, it seems "unlikely" that the Professional manufacturer would have made the buttons for just one soldier. But because yours seems to be the first one to ever come to the attention of the major button-scholars, logic suggests that VERY few of this button were produced. As I mentioned, its front side is an 1864 version of NC Sunburst button. There weren't many Confederate soldiers (even officers) who were "wealthy" at that point in the war... meaning, financially well-off enough to pay a Professional buttonmaker to create a pewter copy of a button which was NOT "otherwise unavailable" in 1864-65 (like the British-made brass Palmetto Guards buttons had become unavailable at that time). So, I have to say, Logic suggests the button is not from the civil war era. But it sure looks like it has been in the ground for more than a few decades. This is a VERY mysterious case.
There is one "alternative scenario" that comes to my mind. We know that civil war veterans often revisited civil war sites, WEARING THEIR UNIFORMS, and lost some buttons at those sites. In the decades after the war's end, NC Sunburst buttons were not available. It is theoretically possible that a wealthy Confederate veteran paid a buttonmaker to create cast pewter copies of his now-unavailable wartime NC Sunburst buttons.
Let me say plainly, I am just THEORIZING "in every possible direction" for possible answers to the mystery. I am of course not claiming it is definitely the answer. Just that it's a "possible" one.
Please believe me that it is not my intention to attack the button, or you. I am attempting to deduce whatever the actual facts are about it, like a scientist, which I hope will lead to solving the mystery eventually. That is my only intent and purpose. It may never be solved with 199% certainty, until somebody finds a written documentation of it, from 1864-65... or from a soldier's memoirs in the Confederate Veteran magazine, etc.
I'll send a carbon-copy of this email to William, to see what he thinks. Perhaps when he gets to examine the button in real-life, he'll have some additional insights about it.
Regards,
Pete G. <><"
Now it was my direct intention to involve pete as i know his Expertise would place a button that I was unsure about under the utmost scrutinty. LOL
I wanted to hear several opinions from noted experts before even posting the button.
The following day I recovered a NC state seal Confederate button from the same field on yet another "scouting outing", This once is a Blank Back Southern local with an Iron shank that has rusted away.
It was caked with green gunk and my hope was it would be still hiding good gilt or plating as that has been the case with other heavy green caked buttons in the past, but it was not meant to be and no plating remains or was ever there as some were not plated or gilted. Now im kickin myself in the ass for taking the green off. What can you do though.
I have since laid off the field as I have special guests coming in Nov and I enjoy being a good host
Saturday I got up to a spot and found some lead and a good helping of confederate Frags and Cannister and even got a Nice brass Sword Scabbard drag. Oh and a .69 Cal ive never dug before. Always nice to fire up the GPX
Anyways Im welcoming opinions on the button and plan to try my best to have it authenticated, even if it takes forever lol
Attached Thumbnails
I havent posted in a while. Been pretty much tied up and on weekends I like to be far away from communication if I can lol. Ive been Doing some scouting at my new site, mainly just checking for iron patches and period target concentrations in likely but undocumented areas. This tactic has been good to me.
In doing this light scouting ive found a concentration of period civilian items. Many Nice flat buttons most all highly gilted, period rat tail pewters, etc.
Also got another 1857 Flying Eagle Cent. For some reason these dont excite me much- likely becasue they and the early indians are always in such bad shape. But hey Its still a nice find and they dont pop up to often.
In searching a major field I recovered what i thought was a Random Block I Confederate Button. This button is a copper front Iron back local and even with a little field damage still looks very nice.
The reason i said I though Random find was that the very next day checking for concentrations in the same area I dug another Confederate Button. This time a Sunburst NC button.
Soon as I dug this button I knew right away something was different about it. I had thought that perhaps what I had dug was a Re-enactors piece, but its look was too "period"
Once home I realized that infact my NC button was made out of pewter! With a wedge type shank. For those that arent familiar with this type of button. They were made of heavy brass and struck with soldered on eyelet shanks.
A search through my button books and online came up completly empty handed on another type of this button - be it period or Repro.
Soon as I could I sent the info and pictures to CW button expert William Leigh and to Accroutment expert Pete George.
I soon recieved a reply from William and here is what he had to say about it
"Hello James,
I have never seen anything like it. I don't have any more information to offer you from photos and it would be irresponsible and less than helpful to you to hazard a guess without seeing and handling it.
In either event, I would certainly recommend additional detecting to see what else you come up with.
Kind regards,
William"
Now showing a button to William Leigh that he has never seen speaks Volume to this recovery. I have set up to bring the button to the show in Richmond to have both gentlemen examine the button in person.
And here is what Pete had to say,
"Like William, I must say I've never seen anything like it. It is "curious" in several ways.
Here are my observations:
1- It was made by using one of the early-1864 versions of thin stamped NC buttons for making the casting-mold. (There may be some of that version from 1863 sites, but if so, I haven't heard of any -- for example, I don't know of any having been found at the Chickamauga battlefield, the Winter-of-1863-64 CS camps around Dalton GA,, or any 1861-63 VA sites.)
2- It has the look of a genuinely old relic. Its pewter body shows the distinctive characteristics of age-corroded excavated pewter.
3- Being a cast pewter button, I expected to see a mold-seam running across the button's back. But the excellent photos seem to show no mold-seam there at all.
4- The button appears to be professionally made... meaning, made by a Professional button-maker with mold-creating and metalcasting skills, rather than being a soldier-made-in-the-field crude quality button.
Related to #3 and 4... we know that some Confederate soldiers paid a "local" buttonmaker to manufacture cast pewter copies of brass military buttons which had become unavailable. The most famous example of that is probably the cast pewter SC Palmetto Guards buttons -- which have a mold-seam running across the back. Having a Professional create a button-mold is expensive. A significant quantity of buttons would have to be produced to justify that expense. In other words, it seems "unlikely" that the Professional manufacturer would have made the buttons for just one soldier. But because yours seems to be the first one to ever come to the attention of the major button-scholars, logic suggests that VERY few of this button were produced. As I mentioned, its front side is an 1864 version of NC Sunburst button. There weren't many Confederate soldiers (even officers) who were "wealthy" at that point in the war... meaning, financially well-off enough to pay a Professional buttonmaker to create a pewter copy of a button which was NOT "otherwise unavailable" in 1864-65 (like the British-made brass Palmetto Guards buttons had become unavailable at that time). So, I have to say, Logic suggests the button is not from the civil war era. But it sure looks like it has been in the ground for more than a few decades. This is a VERY mysterious case.
There is one "alternative scenario" that comes to my mind. We know that civil war veterans often revisited civil war sites, WEARING THEIR UNIFORMS, and lost some buttons at those sites. In the decades after the war's end, NC Sunburst buttons were not available. It is theoretically possible that a wealthy Confederate veteran paid a buttonmaker to create cast pewter copies of his now-unavailable wartime NC Sunburst buttons.
Let me say plainly, I am just THEORIZING "in every possible direction" for possible answers to the mystery. I am of course not claiming it is definitely the answer. Just that it's a "possible" one.
Please believe me that it is not my intention to attack the button, or you. I am attempting to deduce whatever the actual facts are about it, like a scientist, which I hope will lead to solving the mystery eventually. That is my only intent and purpose. It may never be solved with 199% certainty, until somebody finds a written documentation of it, from 1864-65... or from a soldier's memoirs in the Confederate Veteran magazine, etc.
I'll send a carbon-copy of this email to William, to see what he thinks. Perhaps when he gets to examine the button in real-life, he'll have some additional insights about it.
Regards,
Pete G. <><"
Now it was my direct intention to involve pete as i know his Expertise would place a button that I was unsure about under the utmost scrutinty. LOL
I wanted to hear several opinions from noted experts before even posting the button.
The following day I recovered a NC state seal Confederate button from the same field on yet another "scouting outing", This once is a Blank Back Southern local with an Iron shank that has rusted away.
It was caked with green gunk and my hope was it would be still hiding good gilt or plating as that has been the case with other heavy green caked buttons in the past, but it was not meant to be and no plating remains or was ever there as some were not plated or gilted. Now im kickin myself in the ass for taking the green off. What can you do though.
I have since laid off the field as I have special guests coming in Nov and I enjoy being a good host
Saturday I got up to a spot and found some lead and a good helping of confederate Frags and Cannister and even got a Nice brass Sword Scabbard drag. Oh and a .69 Cal ive never dug before. Always nice to fire up the GPX
Anyways Im welcoming opinions on the button and plan to try my best to have it authenticated, even if it takes forever lol
Attached Thumbnails
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