Re-Counterfeit mold of US Large Cent

[Fredneck]

Digging an early site that's producing relics from 1620's to the Civil War period. While detecting on the first visit there I had tapped into an early pit/privy and finally was able to investigate it a little more after a good pounding of the site surface detecting. I dug the mold of an American Large Cent and the bores tusk from the pit, along with lots of glass, china, crockery pieces, and some interesting iron relics not in the post.The mold may be made of pewter and explain why we can't find any old coins at the site lol.
The other cool piece I dug is a very early little copper mouth harp while surface detecting, that references date from way back, maybe earlier than the 1620's horse stirrup from a couple weeks back on the first visit. I pic'd it with the typical harp we find at CW and home sites.
Hoping the other side of the coin mold is still in the unfinished hole, which I now believe is a rock lined privy, just feet behind the old footprint of the house. To be continued ...

**** Added 2 pics showing its not flat and whats left of the raised border, that got me thinking cast mold *****

 

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[ironhorse]

Love the harps!
They're a favourite find for me too..good hunt!

 

[mudwhale]

That's not a mold. It's just a casting made from a LC.
Copper coins were Stamped, not molded. Pewter has a FAR lower melting point, 440F than copper, 1984fF. Pewter is too soft for stamping anything harder than candle wax.

 

[Fredneck]

That's not a mold. It's just a casting made from a LC.
Copper coins were Stamped, not molded. Pewter has a FAR lower melting point, 440F than copper, 1984fF. Pewter is too soft for stamping anything harder than candle wax.

Yeah a casting to make counterfeits was my thought ?

 

[ARC]

Pressed pewter.

 

[mudwhale]

Yeah a casting to make counterfeits was my thought ?

In my post I explained why that would be impossible.

 

[E-Trac-Ohio]

Very unique finds - congrats !

 

[Red-Coat]

That's not a mold. It's just a casting made from a LC.
Copper coins were Stamped, not molded. Pewter has a FAR lower melting point, 440F than copper, 1984fF. Pewter is too soft for stamping anything harder than candle wax.

Yeah a casting to make counterfeits was my thought ?

In my post I explained why that would be impossible.

I don't know whether this is for counterfeiting or not, but your logic is false.

It's a lot easier for a counterfeiter to make cast copies en masse than to strike them individually. One popular method was to make "lost wax" castings. You produce wax replicas from a two-piece mould which is a cast of the original coin. Pewter or lead are eminently suitable. You then embed the multiple wax copies in a two-part clay mould leaving sprue holes to pour molten copper into it, displacing the wax, which vapourises.

Much easier than striking from dies, which require hard alloys and skill to prepare and use.

 

[Fredneck]

In my post I explained why that would be impossible.

Maybe in your stamped theory, counterfeiters back then weren't just stamping. Here's an example of a counterfeiters mold of a Seated Quarter made of lead thats melting point isn't much higher than pewter at 600f.

 

[iAmMike]

`Wow the mould is a pretty awesome find! The jews harps are pretty sweet too! Nice shit hole, I mean privy, you've found

 

[detectorcowboy]

Digging an early site that's producing relics from 1620's to the Civil War period. While detecting on the first visit there I had tapped into an early pit/privy and finally was able to investigate it a little more after a good pounding of the site surface detecting. I dug the mold of an American Large Cent and the bores tusk from the pit, along with lots of glass, china, crockery pieces, and some interesting iron relics not in the post.The mold may be made of pewter and explain why we can't find any old coins at the site lol.
The other cool piece I dug is a very early little copper mouth harp while surface detecting, that references date from way back, maybe earlier than the 1620's horse stirrup from a couple weeks back on the first visit. I pic'd it with the typical harp we find at CW and home sites.
Hoping the other side of the coin mold is still in the unfinished hole, which I now believe is a rock lined privy, just feet behind the old footprint of the house. To be continued ...

Wow, you hit the lick. Nice

 

[mudwhale]

Maybe in your stamped theory, counterfeiters back then weren't stamping. Here's an example of a counterfeiters mold of a Seated Quarter made of lead thats melting point isn't much higher than pewter at 600f.

Copper melts at 1983 degrees F.
Pewter and lead melt at 463 degrees F.
What part do you not understand?

 

[Almy]

R-C, here is my understanding of your explanation:

1: Make pewter or lead cast of real coin.
2. Close the casting made in step 1, pour molten wax into it, open it and take out the wax coin replica.
3. Embed wax coin replica made in 2 in clay and make sprue hole and relief hole to surface.
4. Pour molten copper in sprue hole. The copper flows down the sprue hole and into the wax coin replica, melting and vapourizing the wax and then filling the replica space with the molten copper.
5. Break the cast coin out of the clay.

The artifact found by Fn above is from step 1? How is the molten lead or pewter made to enclose the coin?
If the layer of lead or pewter around the coin is continuous, how would it be taken apart and removed from the coin?
Once cut apart somehow, how would the mold for the wax be made leak-proof when it is reassembled? Molten wax has very low viscosity and would leak easily.
I'm not doubting your explanation, just trying to understand all the steps and particularly the making of the metal mold from the coin which would have produced the object found by Fn.

 

[Fredneck]

Copper melts at 1983 degrees F.
Pewter and lead melt at 463 degrees F.
What part do you not understand?

Who said the counterfeiters were using copper to fill the mold, but hey I'm just a dumb ole relic hunter

 

[Outrider43]

Digging an early site that's producing relics from 1620's to the Civil War period. While detecting on the first visit there I had tapped into an early pit/privy and finally was able to investigate it a little more after a good pounding of the site surface detecting. I dug the mold of an American Large Cent and the bores tusk from the pit, along with lots of glass, china, crockery pieces, and some interesting iron relics not in the post. The mold may be made of pewter and explain why we can't find any old coins at the site lol.
The other cool piece I dug is a very early little copper mouth harp while surface detecting, that references date from way back, maybe earlier than the 1620's horse stirrup from a couple weeks back on the first visit. I picked it with the typical harp we find at CW and home sites.
Hoping the other side of the coin mold is still in the unfinished hole, which I now believe is a rock lined privy, just feet behind the old footprint of the house. To be continued ...

Near the city of Medina, Ohio there was a small village that was named the most wicked town in America. Several coin counterfeiter's worked out of there. Mostly quarters and half dollars. There's a book at the Medina library that lead me to the site.

 

[mudwhale]

I don't know whether this is for counterfeiting or not, but your logic is false.

It's a lot easier for a counterfeiter to make cast copies en masse than to strike them individually. One popular method was to make "lost wax" castings. You produce wax replicas from a two-piece mould which is a cast of the original coin. Pewter or lead are eminently suitable. You then embed the multiple wax copies in a two-part clay mould leaving sprue holes to pour molten copper into it, displacing the wax, which vapourises.

Much easier than striking from dies, which require hard alloys and skill to prepare and use.

Apparently you didn't read my post. I stated Copper coins were Stamped back in the day. The OP showed a reverse impression of Large Cent from the late 1700's to early 1800's.
#1 Trying to counterfeit a 1 cent coin would be dumb.
#2 As you Rambled about using the "Lost Wax" method using Copper, Where did this Copper come from? After all, if you had this Copper laying around to go through all the trouble to make counterfeit coins wouldn't it be easier to just sell the Copper?
#3 Even if you did use the "Lost Wax" method, the fine detail is lost. It would never look real. Folks knew what to look for back then. I have eight 8 Reale coins, 4 of them faked by the Mexicans and the British and a slew of 1 and 2 Reales much the same. The difference was they were Silver.

 

[mudwhale]

Who said the counterfeiters were using copper to fill the mold, but hey I'm just a dumb ole relic hunter

How would you make it look like an authentic copper coin HMMMM......

 

[Red-Coat]

If the layer of lead or pewter around the coin is continuous, how would it be taken apart and removed from the coin?
Once cut apart somehow, how would the mold for the wax be made leak-proof when it is reassembled? Molten wax has very low viscosity and would leak easily.
I'm not doubting your explanation, just trying to understand all the steps and particularly the making of the metal mold from the coin which would have produced the object found by Fn.

To use this method (although I say again that I don't know if the item in question is for counterfeiting) you don't need to completely enclose the original coin in molten metal. You only need to pour it on each side in turn to get two separate impressions. The casting metal will easily prise apart from the coin when it cools, if it has a lower melting point. A thin smear of grease and forced cooling with cold water can also help separation.
You can then use those moulds over and over again in the manner of a double-sided cookie press to produce a multitude of wax replicas with the correct thickness. the wax doesn't need to be melted... only warmed so its soft enough to take the impressions.

 

[Fredneck]

How would you make it look like an authentic copper coin HMMMM......

A mix of half copper, the rest, less expensive metals, zinc, lead and tin.

#1 Trying to counterfeit a 1 cent coin would be dumb

Try telling that to Colonial America, counterfeit coppers was a big problem

 

[FloodcityTom]

Great finds ! For what its worth many counterfeiters would shave or carve the outer portion of various coins until they had enough material to make a whole coin. one reason why the US treasury mints introduced the reeded edge to all US coins. I've run across a few pre civil war coins that were carved or even Clipped.