Prospecting restrictions in the Auburn recreation area

[infotraker]

I received a PDF file sent to many of us in the Motherlode gold hounds club out of Auburn Ca. I tried to copy the contents here but the copy failed. It refers to new regulations in the Auburn Folsom recreation area. It appears that the new regulation permits only hands and pans prospecting. This new regulation will severely affect all prospectors in the American river area.

 

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[Asmbandits]

It's plain English. See what the difference here is-

The law as written:
It is unlawful to possess a vacuum or suction dredge

The law if it was meant to include vacuums along with suction dredges:
It is unlawful to possess a vacuum or a suction dredge

The law if it was meant to include vacuum and suction and dredges:
It is unlawful to possess a vacuum or a suction or a dredge.

The last one seems off because neither vacuum or suction can stand alone as the object of the sentence. Objects are nouns, noun phrases, or pronouns. Neither vacuum or suction by themselves are a noun, noun phrase, or pronoun in the way the law is written so when you try to make the sentence mean several things you run out of objects after the noun dredge.

In the law as written there is only one object implied - a dredge. The vacuum part and the suction part are known as a modifiers when written as they are in the law.

It's much the same sentence structure as "It is unlawful to possess a blue or green dredge". Obviously the modifier green is not the object that's being referred to. Clearly the dredge is the object.

It would be silly to assume that blue or green things are "unlawful to possess" just as it's silly to think that vacuum or suction is whats "unlawful to possess". With as many references to dredging that are in the law you don't see vacuum or suction being treated as an object by themselves.

This law does not affect non suction dredges. Dragline, clamshell and bucket dredges are not the subject (or the object) of this law. Suction and vacuum are used as modifiers to the noun dredge so there will be no confusion with other types of dredges. Laws have to be specific and those modifiers fit the bill perfectly when you understand the sentence structure.

I'm guessing along with mining history the California schools went a little light on grammar too?
Don't sweat it most people didn't pay attention in English after 10 years of the stuff. It's boring and it can be like swimming in mud but much like math it does come in handy when you need it and when it comes to figuring out the meaning of written laws it's essential.

Heavy Pans

Thanks for the incite Clay, and yes my grammar and spelling is not very good, though I've never augured or claimed that it is.

There once was a time when to be a miner you did not have to be as well educated as it seems you need to be these days, not only with law but grammar as well lol. I do the best I can is all I can say, some excel in other ways and though grammar and spelling weren't my cup of tea, and given the cards I was dealt, life didn't allow much but work from a young age. I'm happy where I've ended up and am successful enough to live fairly comfortably. I don't claim to know everything with this stuff, that's why I'm here.

 

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[Clay Diggins]

Clay, Im not twisting anything, remember im the average joe prospector not someone well versed in this as yourself. It seems no one here is as well vested in this as yourself and I mean that as a complement. That being said it shouldn't be a surprise that someone like myself might have trouble interpreting the poorly worded law put for by not I but the state. More than anything it shows that if someone like myself can have trouble interpreting it, so could the guy writing the citation that im sure probably wont spend as much time trying to make sense of it as I, thats what the courts are for right? The state could have easily have put as Nitric said " vacuum dredge or suction dredge" and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I know I'm not alone with being miss lead, I've heard from many people that have spoke with FS employees that have said a vacuum falls under the same restrictions and would be considered illegal. Ive also heard from some the exact opposite. Given that and the poor wording its no surprise. Its all a mess of interpretation and intent, I never said anything about anyone vacuuming carpets as if their intent was to do just that, its obvious there not mining and I don't see how anyone with half a brain could mix that up if the intent and circumstances weren't so. I could say the same about a baseball bat, sure its a pretty every day object even a child's toy, but you see a man carrying one down the street with it ready to swing now that person has a potentially deadly weapon and what happens next is left up to his intent. Though I wish the world were as cut and dry as some think it is or should be. Im not trying to spread misinformation, Im here to talk gold and seek guidance and opinions from those that might know better, and if possible help those with any relevant knowledge/incite I might have.

I agree with all your points Asmbandits. The law is written poorly by people who know nothing about dredging. This stuff is misleading and it is done that way on purpose.

There is a good part.
Lawyers and Politicians need each other to write the laws like this.

The politicians convince people that the law means one thing while the lawyer writes down the law in another language (legal) that sounds like the language that you and I use but it doesn't make any sense.

People get confused, cops write tickets for stuff they don't even understand, agencies collect fees and put up signs based on laws they can't read and in the end those same lawyers that wrote the law make their money arguing the law with other lawyers in court.

After a while not even the judges and lawyers are really sure what the law means but that's all good for them.
The lawyers will keep on arguing their laws for whichever side hires them first.
The judges are really busy and their opinions about the lawyers arguments are important to even more people who are afraid they will end up paying a lawyer to argue or locked up for stroking their cats fur the wrong direction or vacuuming within 500 feet of a lawnmower.

The people finally hear from their politician that he's going to sponsor a new law that will take care of some of the stuff that didn't work out from the last law.
and...
The politician goes to the lawyer to write a new law in that weird language so some of the law that nobody understands will allow people to mow within 50 feet of a vacuum as long as their cat isn't stroking them at the same time.

I know you get this stuff, we all do on some gut level. I know you are wondering where the "good part" is that I promised you up there somewhere.

Here's where you will find the good part.
You can do several things to stop the stupid unreadable laws. They all work to some extent but you really need to combine them all for best results. Even better than going it alone just put your efforts into the one that works best for you and let your friends help with whatever skills they have. It really is better to do community type things with the support of your community.

1. Learn the secret lawyers language that allows politicians, lawyers and judges to keep you in fear of poorly written laws. Teach it to your friends. Once you know what they are saying in their secret language the next part will be a lot easier.

2. Fire the politicians if they won't pass only clear laws that the majority of people actually want and need. Fire them if they even whisper in lawyer speak. Fire them if they spend their time trying to convince you that you need more laws, agencies or fines. Fire them if they spend their time with paid lobbyists or base their support on a single cause. Fire them if they have lunch with Izzy. Fire them if they just look like they are going to tell you what is best for you. Fire them just so the next politician knows that their job is on the line every day if they don't pony up with what the people want. Politicians should respect and fear the people who sign their paycheck. They are our employees and civil servants not our bosses.

3. Encourage people to tell their politician servants just what laws they would like to see repealed. I'm sure your community could agree on several (hundred) laws that don't really serve your needs at all. Nobody needs thousands of unreadable laws to tell them how to act and how to live. Maybe start a culture of throwing out the old unreadable laws and replacing them with new simple practical laws.

4. Understand that if you can believe that you could be arrested for vacuuming some dirt with an electric vacuum cleaner then you can also believe in your ability to change that possibility. One is no less possible than the other because you live in a country where you can write the laws and repeal the laws and change they way you are governed just by by showing up to fire every politician that won't fight to change the systems that are not serving you - the people.

That's the really good part. A little education, a little power and you can get rid of a system engineered to keep you fearing your own government because of a little electric vacuum.

Heavy Pans

 

[jere64ca]

Clay, I wish I could triple "like" that last post!

Last edited by Clay Diggins; Today at 01:06 AM.

Is that the time you are at your mental/political peak?

 

[Nitric]

I agree with all your points Asmbandits. The law is written poorly by people who know nothing about dredging. This stuff is misleading and it is done that way on purpose.

There is a good part.
Lawyers and Politicians need each other to write the laws like this.

The politicians convince people that the law means one thing while the lawyer writes down the law in another language (legal) that sounds like the language that you and I use but it doesn't make any sense.

People get confused, cops write tickets for stuff they don't even understand, agencies collect fees and put up signs based on laws they can't read and in the end those same lawyers that wrote the law make their money arguing the law with other lawyers in court.

After a while not even the judges and lawyers are really sure what the law means but that's all good for them.
The lawyers will keep on arguing their laws for whichever side hires them first.
The judges are really busy and their opinions about the lawyers arguments are important to even more people who are afraid they will end up paying a lawyer to argue or locked up for stroking their cats fur the wrong direction or vacuuming within 500 feet of a lawnmower.

The people finally hear from their politician that he's going to sponsor a new law that will take care of some of the stuff that didn't work out from the last law.
and...
The politician goes to the lawyer to write a new law in that weird language so some of the law that nobody understands will allow people to mow within 50 feet of a vacuum as long as their cat isn't stroking them at the same time.

I know you get this stuff, we all do on some gut level. I know you are wondering where the "good part" is that I promised you up there somewhere.

Here's where you will find the good part.
You can do several things to stop the stupid unreadable laws. They all work to some extent but you really need to combine them all for best results. Even better than going it alone just put your efforts into the one that works best for you and let your friends help with whatever skills they have. It really is better to do community type things with the support of your community.

1. Learn the secret lawyers language that allows politicians, lawyers and judges to keep you in fear of poorly written laws. Teach it to your friends. Once you know what they are saying in their secret language the next part will be a lot easier.

2. Fire the politicians if they won't pass only clear laws that the majority of people actually want and need. Fire them if they even whisper in lawyer speak. Fire them if they spend their time trying to convince you that you need more laws, agencies or fines. Fire them if they spend their time with paid lobbyists or base their support on a single cause. Fire them if they have lunch with Izzy. Fire them if they just look like they are going to tell you what is best for you. Fire them just so the next politician knows that their job is on the line every day if they don't pony up with what the people want. Politicians should respect and fear the people who sign their paycheck. They are our employees and civil servants not our bosses.

3. Encourage people to tell their politician servants just what laws they would like to see repealed. I'm sure your community could agree on several (hundred) laws that don't really serve your needs at all. Nobody needs thousands of unreadable laws to tell them how to act and how to live. Maybe start a culture of throwing out the old unreadable laws and replacing them with new simple practical laws.

4. Understand that if you can believe that you could be arrested for vacuuming some dirt with an electric vacuum cleaner then you can also believe in your ability to change that possibility. One is no less possible than the other because you live in a country where you can write the laws and repeal the laws and change they way you are governed just by by showing up to fire every politician that won't fight to change the systems that are not serving you - the people.

That's the really good part. A little education, a little power and you can get rid of a system engineered to keep you fearing your own government because of a little electric vacuum.

Heavy Pans

Ok!! That is language I understand completely! To keep this within rules...I partially grew up in a households to "fear rules" and they are put there because, "people are too stupid to know what's best for them and need to be told!" .....As I got older I went in the complete opposite direction. If that makes any sense....

I Agree with what you wrote 1000000%! A lot of things need simplified. Ok, I'll get off this road ......

 

[Clay Diggins]

Clay, I wish I could triple "like" that last post!

Is that the time you are at your mental/political peak?

I'm glad you liked it. Once is enough.

That's all the time I had after a very long and busy day. I'm just as fragged as anyone else at one o'clock in the morning but this stuff is important to me so I stayed up past bedtime. I hope others will care enough to go that extra mile to get their ideas out there too.

Now I'm off to cut some parts off another car 60 miles away so mine can run. Then I'm going to drive another 30 miles to check on a sick friend. I don't just sit around being a smart azz all the time. I do all the same things the rest of you do to get by, take care of my own and try to help others out when I can. We've only got one life so we might as well live it as if it means something.

Heavy Pans

 

[Tony_agr]

I received a PDF file sent to many of us in the Motherlode gold hounds club out of Auburn Ca. I tried to copy the contents here but the copy failed. It refers to new regulations in the Auburn Folsom recreation area. It appears that the new regulation permits only hands and pans prospecting. This new regulation will severely affect all prospectors in the American river area.

Did I miss something? what I read in the PDF was dated 2010, is there more to this?, I've sluiced right in front of a park ranger and nothing was said, this was about a year ago.. did the tyrants, change the rules again?

 

[nuggetshooter323]

I hate to say it, but CA is just going to try to keep taking things away from us. That should be apparent in light of the ridiculous, and illegal guns laws that the state just passed.