Professional rock art petro hounds talk to me…

[magua]

I’m currently looking for anyone that is good with petroglyphs and rock art. If somebody has a education or training, specifically in that, that would be great or if somebody has a great deal of experience in working with others on those type of projects, that would be great as well. I’m presently working with a group and We’re trying to track down some further details about a petroglyph that we have documented. It’s similar to others, but has additional details on it and we’re trying to get some additional ideas, confirm, some thoughts, or rule out some ideas that we already have. You can direct message me. I’d be happy to share the information and review some of the details.

I’d share some of the material publicly on the list, but a great deal of it has yet to be published, and there is an area directly adjacent to this new find that has been declared a heritage site, but has received a great deal of vandalism or looking at a potential future project, or dig site with the new find, we are trying to prevent any damage or vandalism to this area.

This would be related to petroglyphs that are common in the Ohio valley areas of Pennsylvania, some areas of West Virginia, and Ohio, of course.

We have multiple messages out to various individuals that are rock art specialist in various universities and museums across the US. We’re gathering information from those sources. it’s time for me to dip into rock art specialist that may have tons of experience and can offer any evidence or details on the subject from their experiences or prior education.

Pennsylvania has a very unique system when it comes to archaeology that has been sort of passed on from years gone by. We have professional archaeologist where you have official education and degrees, etc. We also have professional archaeologists who have been doing it for 30 to 50 years For several of them but they may not have specific degrees that apply directly to that area in education, but their overwhelming knowledge is priceless. And then we have archaeologist enthusiasts/amateurs who may have a great deal of knowledge, be very active in providing assistance, and learning and eventually, after many years, they may also be considered at a professional level due to their learning and experience from the veterans.

If you have a lot of knowledge and experience with these things, step forward, and I can tap your mind and enlighten you with maybe something you’ve never seen before as well.

There was one gentleman on here who had a very thorough experience and knowledge but, he seems to have gone silent, and I can no longer locate his info. I know I had it in my personal email as well but I had lost one of my email accounts and screwed that up, so I don’t have access to that info.
Thank you in advance

 

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[Al D]

I recommend the book “The Rocks Begin to Speak”
by La Van Martinaue

 

[magua]

I recommend the book “The Rocks Begin to Speak”
by La Van Martinaue

Thanks Alan.

I bet my group has that in at least one of their libraries. What we’re dealing with is a variant of mishipeshu with some extra carvings. The regular carving that is in the same system is like the pic attached but the new one has a few very different areas and our group has ideas, but needs to

I want to share it and have others look directly at it and maybe someone would immediately be like, “I’ve seen that extra design here and it may mean this ”. i’m really just waiting for them to let me know that they have registered it so it’s sort of publicized and then I can spring out and ask. But out of the group, I’m merely an assistant, and do not have publishing rights on this project. I still try and research them as I can. I don’t want to step on anyone’s toes.

 

[Al D]

Need to see some more context on the rock as a whole, but it has some characteristics of Ojibwa

 

[Clay Diggins]

The authors name is LeVan Martineau and the book “The Rocks Begin to Speak” is entirely fiction based on the fictitious "Hopi Prophecies".

I speak two of the Hopi languages. The Hopi do not have a written language. The so called "Hopi Prophesy" is a scam initiated by the Hopi themselves as a means of taking money from the thousands of seekers who invade the Hopi lands and society.

I wouldn't waste my time on this fictional account. There is no scholarly content in this book.

 

[magua]

Need to see some more context on the rock as a whole, but it has some characteristics of Ojibwa

I’ll DM you

 

[magua]

The authors name is LeVan Martineau and the book “The Rocks Begin to Speak” is entirely fiction based on the fictitious "Hopi Prophecies".

I speak two of the Hopi languages. The Hopi do not have a written language. The so called "Hopi Prophesy" is a scam initiated by the Hopi themselves as a means of taking money from the thousands of seekers who invade the Hopi lands and society.

I wouldn't waste my time on this fictional account. There is no scholarly content in this book.

Always good to learn something new. There are few that have written language and fewer that actually used petroglyphs or pictographs

 

[magua]

Need to see some more context on the rock as a whole, but it has some characteristics of Ojibwa

It’s almost certainly Algonquian related. The area of greatest interest is the head area on the new find (the rough pic attached prior is not the new find).

Can’t DM you.

 

[Blackfoot58]

I’d reflect on Ojibwe culture for this one. My family background is Blackfoot and that is where I have more knowledge. Although I’ve tried to study many NA tribes that were in what’s now USA. I believe this to be the “panther that lives in the deep”.
Possibly the extra design work is dealing with a representation of water. I’d never rule out a representation of the moon or sun, either. Possibly even “The Trickster” which is used often in Ojibwe culture and represented various ways. Hard to tell without seeing the added designs. I wish you success in your quest.

 

[magua]

I’d reflect on Ojibwe culture for this one. My family background is Blackfoot and that is where I have more knowledge. Although I’ve tried to study many NA tribes that were in what’s now USA. I believe this to be the “panther that lives in the deep”.
Possibly the extra design work is dealing with a representation of water. I’d never rule out a representation of the moon or sun, either. Possibly even “The Trickster” which is used often in Ojibwe culture and represented various ways. Hard to tell without seeing the added designs. I wish you success in your quest.

You just said some key words.

I just spoke with the one gentleman in charge of the project, and he asked me not to share the image publicly yet because they did not record it or publish it. DM coming

 

[Eastender]

I'm usually over at the metal detecting section of this forum but happened to spot your post. I currently find Native American artifacts displaced by erosion while out metal detecting on Eastern Long Island, NY and recently found my third copper kettle arrowhead from the contact period. My father's side is among the first European settlers of McKean County PA having received land grants as part of their Revolutionary War Soldier's pensions. I grew up in SW NYS picking Seneca points from the cornfields of local farms.

In the summer of 1978 when I was a young 18 just graduated from HS I received a scholarship to participate in archaeological research called "The Petroglyphs of Black Canyon" in the Black Hills of the high Mojave Desert (south of Death Valley and north of Barstow). It was led by Wilson G. Turner (now deceased) of Whittier and Rio Hondo Colleges with connections to the San Bernardino County Museum. The goal of this research to was locate, record, and preserve prehistoric Petroglyphs in Black Canyon which has an unusual concentration of thousands of petroglyphs in a roughly ten mile canyon. Not only did we want to create a database of glyphs for systematic study, we also also sought to preserve them from theft and vandalism (people like to shoot at them for target practice). I later returned to this research in 1980 as field staff member facilitating 5 groups of students. I also served as a contract field archaeologist at the newly reopened Fort Irwin. I was part of a crack team assigned to a surface examination of the Goldstone Tracking Facility run by NASA and JPL. We found several sites worthy of Natural Historic Preservation on this huge base and assisted the DOD in preserving noteworthy sites.

Unfortunately I did not continue these studies. I was pulled abroad for years of study in East Africa, India, Nepal, and Israel. My areas of concentration were split between Cultural and Natural Resources Management and Environmental issues won out. I did not follow-through on the analysis research. My role was more in the location and documentation side. Working and living in the Mojave year round with natural and military hazards required heathy observant youth. We took slide photos of the glyphs, and Wilson Turner, a great professional historical artist, would recreate them on paper to create an inventoried catalog. He would project the slide onto paper and duplicate by hand. While we cannot assume a universality or "common language of symbolism" it also cannot be ruled out. Plus cultural remains in the SW US are among the oldest (arguably the oldest) in the US. So it might be interesting to get reprints of this research from the San Bernardino County Museum to see if there are trends or similar symbols along with the subsequent research aimed at interpretation.

Interesting to note the most common symbol we encountered was similar to the Greek Phi, a simple circle dived by a line which extended beyond both sides the circumference. Sometimes this was expanded into an anthropomorphic form. Sometimes these appeared layered with detail (stylistically and/or methodically variant) added over time. Many assume this to be variations representing fertility. Horizontal ladders, spirals, and net designs were also prevalent. My gut feeling is there is a mix of practical as well as spiritual. Maps, historical event info, spiritual teachings, stories, boundaries, etc.

This may not be of any use to you but it was a very exciting period of my life in an area of research lacking documentation. I'm all for preservation and knowledge. See attached report detailing some of this work and good luck on your quest.

 

[The Rebel]

Was out in Moab this summer and saw these. It's amazing to think these are so old. If they could only speak.

 

[RGINN]

No exactly where those are at, The Rebel. Those are pictographs, and they get fainter every year. To the east of those are some petroglyphs. And if you go across the road down 7 Mile Canyon, quite a few more.

 

[RGINN]

The authors name is LeVan Martineau and the book “The Rocks Begin to Speak” is entirely fiction based on the fictitious "Hopi Prophecies".

I speak two of the Hopi languages. The Hopi do not have a written language. The so called "Hopi Prophesy" is a scam initiated by the Hopi themselves as a means of taking money from the thousands of seekers who invade the Hopi lands and society.

I wouldn't waste my time on this fictional account. There is no scholarly content in this book.

Thank you Clay Diggins. I've got that book and thought, well I don't know about this and thought I was the only one with some doubts. He had a couple of things in there that sparked my interest. I'm more familiar with rock art in the 4 Corners area and don't know much about the north east.

 

[magua]

Was out in Moab this summer and saw these. It's amazing to think these are so old. If they could only speak.View attachment 2106663View attachment 2106664View attachment 2106665

I’ll be out there for a week next month and these are on my list!

 

[The Rebel]

Here you go. Have a great time!

Intestine Man & Snake In The Mouth Hike Moab Utah

Snake in the Mouth and Intestine Man Pictograph Panels are easy to find rock art site just north of Moab, Utah.

www.moabadventurecondo.com

 

[Al D]

The book, ”The Rocks Begin to Speak“ is not a work of fiction as posted by some, it does not mention anything about Hopi myth, perhaps there is another book by that title of which is referred.
There is merit in the observations made by LeVan Martieau.
I wrote a thesis in college titled “A comparison of petroglyphs and subsistence activities of the Wester Archaic” which provided strong evidence in support of LeVan’s theories. In summary, I located 3 petroglyph sites, previously unknown to the BLM based purely upon habitation site characteristics, of significance was the fact that all of these sites contained common material glyphs and all were oriented facing South along known and suspected travel routes used by game and hunter gatherers.

 

[Clay Diggins]

LeVan Martineau

I'm pretty sure he's Elizabeth Warren's soul brother.

 

[magua]

The book, ”The Rocks Begin to Speak“ is not a work of fiction as posted by some, it does not mention anything about Hopi myth, perhaps there is another book by that title of which is referred.
There is merit in the observations made by LeVan Martieau.
I wrote a thesis in college titled “A comparison of petroglyphs and subsistence activities of the Wester Archaic” which provided strong evidence in support of LeVan’s theories. In summary, I located 3 petroglyph sites, previously unknown to the BLM based purely upon habitation site characteristics, of significance was the fact that all of these sites contained common material glyphs and all were oriented facing South along known and suspected travel routes used by game and hunter gatherers.

You mentioned finding previously unknown sites based on characteristics that you no doubt observed from your research. This is currently happening as of today. You can still find these new sites. It’s amazing considering everywhere that human and present-day humans have walked, we can still find new information and new evidence.
Observation is such a key element in finding various sites. You may see a rock formation in one area and think, wow, that’s son unique or substantial that there’s gotta be some glyphs there. That rock site is incredible. And it just might be incredible. But if that area did not hold some significance for Native American culture, you’re not gonna find anything there. You’ll find them at the locals of meeting places, whether it’s an annual or seasonal get-togethers of various tribes for religious, ceremonial, or trading purposes.
In the Northeast, more specifically Pennsylvania,, it’s still a mystery as to why some of these sites are found in areas. Although you can track and trace it in almost perfect lines along rivers, paths/portages which may point out boundary areas. Some areas are known to have not been habitated by the Indians, but rather hunting grounds. But it’s still up for debate.
These cultures hold so many more mysteries that we will never learn or figure out. It’s fantastic to study and research and try to understand. The areas that I have been working at recently are known today or Highly probable of Algonquin origin but considering that some of the tribes, such as the Monongahela, and many earlier tribes were completely decimated or assimilated during the various pre-historic, paleo early, mid, late woodland, etc, etc. but, considering those facts and warring factions, and shifting populations, it really is anyone’s guess as to who carved some of these.
It’s just amazing that in this day and age, we can still go out and find artefacts during our simple creek walks, and explorations…we’re lucky and each little discovery of arrowheads, pottery shards, etc by each of us is a little bit of history in the making by us enthusiasts!

We’re all making some discoveries in Native American history in a sense!

 

[releventchair]

I agree with Blackfoot's mention of water panther.
Around the great lakes . Stirs up water and the unwary /unrespectful can drown.

The Underwater Panther (Great Water Lynx, Night Panther, Mishibizhiw)

Information and legends about the Native American mythological figure Underwater Panther, Great Water Lynx, or Night Panther, a lake monster of the Algonquian tribes.

www.native-languages.org

Thanks Alan.

I bet my group has that in at least one of their libraries. What we’re dealing with is a variant of mishipeshu with some extra carvings. The regular carving that is in the same system is like the pic attached but the new one has a few very different areas and our group has ideas, but needs to

I want to share it and have others look directly at it and maybe someone would immediately be like, “I’ve seen that extra design here and it may mean this ”. i’m really just waiting for them to let me know that they have registered it so it’s sort of publicized and then I can spring out and ask. But out of the group, I’m merely an assistant, and do not have publishing rights on this project. I still try and research them as I can. I don’t want to step on anyone’s toes.

Yours the Clarion county example.

Underwater Mystery Cat

Native North Americans have a long tradition of stories regarding the Mishibizhiw, an underwater panther. Some tribes, particularly Anish...

cfz-canada.blogspot.com