Pottery design-looks like the sun! Any ideas?

[Arrow1492]

This one intrigues me. Any idea what this design represents? It appears to be on top of chord markings. From a missisppian site.
It looks like a sun. If so, what does it mean?
from Illinois.

 

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[monsterrack]

That's a cool find.

 

[NCPeaches]

A very cool find! I'm a pottery fan and probably because most of my finds are pottery but I've never found one with that design on it. It does look like the sun and is amazing!

 

[crj1968]

I've never found any pottery- but yeah...looks like a sun or a flower, maybe. Very cool!

What does it mean? Just an artistic design I suppose.

 

[rock]

Do you have mountains in your area? Could be something like that. Its a nice piece.

 

[Mark Todd]

Nice sherd, It most probably is Mississippian,
the sun motif is pretty rare however as far as I know. Here's a couple examples. The last picture is painted on ( black over white slip ), rather than incised and not from Illinois ( from the Chickamauga basin in Tennessee), but the same motif.
Like the Egyptians most Native Americans idolized the sun because it was essential to all aspects of life. Many of the other motifs found on Native American pottery have similar significance.
I'm curious as to which county you found it in, I live in Illinois?

 

[Mark Todd]

Nice sherd, It most probably is Mississippian,
the sun motif is pretty rare however as far as I know. Here's a couple examples. The last picture is painted on ( black over white slip ), rather than incised and not from Illinois ( from the Chickamauga basin in Tennessee), but the same motif.
Like the Egyptians most Native Americans idolized the sun because it was essential to all aspects of life. Many of the other motifs found on Native American pottery have similar significance.
I'm curious as to which county you found it in, I live in Illinois?

Whoops didn't attach the pics.

 

[Arrow1492]

Thanks Mark
This was found in the 1920s down south in what I believe is union county. From that I could find, this is likely a fragment of a weeping eye motif, also known as forked eye. There is a some symbolism there, related to Cahokia.
While the entire piece is not there, it's still pretty cool to see.
Thanks

 

[Arrow1492]

No mountains, all flat

 

[Mark Todd]

I'll see if I can get some more definitive information for you next week. I'm a member of the IVAS ( Illinois Valley Archeological Society ) , which is the central Illinois chapter of the IAAA ( Illinois Association for the Advancement of Archeology ). Our monthly meeting is next Tuesday 8/15/17. There are always 5-10 vocational Archeologists present, between the ages of 50 and 74 years old.
One of them is writing a book about Native American symbols and there meaning. I'll inquire to see what is known or theorized about the symbol on your sherd.
The." weeping eye " motif that you mentioned may be contemporaneous with the sun motif on your sherd but I don't think it is in any sense a variation of the weeping eye. Here's an example of the weeping eye motif on a head mask of pounded thin plate copper over cedar wood excavated by Peoria, Illinois...

 

[Arrow1492]

Thanks. If you have more info, that would be great!!!

 

[Arrow1492]

I think we have an answer-it is the sun! Apparently these are common at the angel mound site in Indiana. Here is an image. Appears to be rare in Illinois.....perhaps?

 

[Arrow1492]

Mark Todd
Curious-did this come up in your meetings? Any definitive ideas?
Thanks

 

[Mark Todd]

Hey Arrow, my apologies, I was confused about the date of our next archeological society meeting.
I didn't find out until yesterday evening while I was headed to the museum that it's the first Tuesday of the month. I have too many meetings to attend, gets confusing sometimes. I even had an apple pie and a double batch of lemon bars in the truck with me, we always have food after the meeting and volunteered deserts.
Anyway back to the subject, The person lecturing the first Tuesday of this coming August is William Iseminger, I believe he is the head or assistant head archaeologist at Cahokia mounds here in Illinois Heis also the author of the book from which I took the picture of the pot in my first reply that has the same motif on it as your-sherd, he'll definitely be able to answer some questions but I'm sure all of the other archaeologists that regularly attend could answer your questions as. For vocational Archeologists pot sherds are one of, if not, there most important artifact for sequencing various cultures.
Since I'm guessing your anxious to know more, and it's going to be a couple weeks, I'll send Dr Alan Harn an Email with a picture of your sherd. He's retiring now, but was head Archeologist at local mounds museum for many decades and has been digging up Central Illinois for fifty years and I've known him since I was in High School. I'll post what he has to say when I get a reply.

 

[Arrow1492]

Thanks Mark Todd
I'm really eager to find out more. Once you hear back, I'd by curious what he had to say. I haven't found a similar one on any pictures on the web-so perhaps it's ceremonial and rare
We shall see (I hope )
Thanks

 

[Mark Todd]

I haven't spoken will Dr Harn yet, I have his professional email address, and it was evidently erased when he retired a short time ago.
However I dug up some excellent information. If you've never read technical archeological reports you might find some of the terminology a bit confusing or difficult to understand, but you if take time read through all of this informational you'll see that there is a great deal known about that symbol, and it's beyond mere speculation due to oral N.A. Indian tradition.
Basically, it's the symbolism of " a Native American Whole Worldview ". The earth and all of life there in finds its existence in the cradle of the Sun, even to "the four winds" or "four corners" of the earth (both are "idioms" for the whole earth and it's four seasons. The symbolism in that motif is multi-layered and complex, as you will see...