Popping the cork on a dredge

[Timberdoodle]

That's basically it in a nutshell. I find that in the reduction taper at the rear it is better to have a more sweeping flare than a quick 45 type taper and the overall length can be shorter considerably by locating the inlet down at the end. No need for any manifold space in front of the inlet. Your going to want at least 1-2ft of hydraulic load length after the jet and this can be fulfilled by hose or the use of a flare design that does not increase for this distance(see a proline flare)

 

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[principedeleon]

So you are talking about something more like this .. I truly believe a design like this would be more efficient since it have the low friction of almost a normal log jet and the 360degree spread of a coupler jet but im just speaking out my mouth maybe this could have a better flow then even the gold diver type. I might start on trying to build something like this on the beginning of the next year.. Hopefully someone with more knowledge can come out with fully working model that is twice or Triple the efficiency of a normal log jet. I believe in you tim hopefully you show the world what was thought to be impossible to many dredgers !

 

[Timberdoodle]

So you are talking about something more like this .. I truly believe a design like this would be more efficient since it have the low friction of almost a normal log jet and the 360degree spread of a coupler jet but im just speaking out my mouth maybe this could have a better flow then even the gold diver type. I might start on trying to build something like this on the beginning of the next year.. Hopefully someone with more knowledge can come out with fully working model that is twice or Triple the efficiency of a normal log jet. I believe in you tim hopefully you show the world what was thought to be impossible to many dredgers !

Yes, a sweeping reduction with help create less turbulence in the feed to the final jet orifice and help with direction of flow. As long as the manifold is large enough between the inner and outer pipe then the intake port can be on the side without any noticeable loss. Most inline eductors use this style of feed for this reason. The main thing is to not restrict the feed very much until the point of the jet orifice or you will loose energy to friction losses. The benefits of applying the jet energy directly to the water column is one of the reasons they are so efficient.

 

[principedeleon]

Yeah that haves to do a lot .. I could imagen just going on that ride what it might feel like.

Thanks a lot on the technical issue when dealing with jets. I have done such a mistake restricting the inlet feed far from entering the jet. I guess we always have things to learn.

 

[Timberdoodle]

Glad to help. A couple of follow up notes on testing and adjusting.

Manometer- very handy to measure changes in suction (hard to get accurate by just feeling with your hand). You can make one with a simple clear tube or buy a electronic one but be sure that it measures Inches of Water (InH2o).

Static testing- Manometer tube connected through a snug hole in a cap on the front of the jet. Provides level of vacuum without throughput which is not really a true test of operational level, but does give relative performance relation level to another jet with the same size outlet pipe tested in the same fashion.

Open testing- Manometer connected through a side port (hole) on a in-line adapter tube connected to the jet input. Gives a better indication of actual throughput suction of the jet in operation and is very important if you are measuring vacuum levels of jets which have different outlet pipe sizes to accommodate some of the added input water from the jet which will increase the suction values of the jet.

There are also pipe flow volume charts that can be used to measure pipe flow which are very handy. Google-Measurement of Pipe Flow by the Coordinate Method

 

[principedeleon]

Okay never had this in mind how i could do so, but i did saw a video with a jet being tested with different gages and i also saw you speaking on about the testing procedure . It was on a octajet thread opened up by Omniron on a Octajet. I believe is imporant to do this kind of testing and see by every modification if your numbers are increasing. I was looking at some gages that i believe you mean to hook up with the clear hose for you can have a Diy model, but for the price and flexibility of the electic ones i think they are the best way to go. But im new to this and maybe you can clear this up as im becoming more & more interested in. Heres the link to the monometer . http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004XW6ENI Also in the open testing you're talking about opening a small port where the inlet water pressure enters the pipe . Basically measuring the vacuum of the pumps water rushing before entering the jet chamber. Hope im right i hate being a bad student lol

 

[GrizzlyGremlin]

Great info thanks so much. Wealth of info. Now just to decide which dredge. Im thinking keene. Since ill have to mod much of it i think im going to start with the keene.

 

[principedeleon]

So your going on building a infinity jet?
Since i see you are talking about modifing a keene.

 

[Timberdoodle]

That manometer would work, but you can save some money and buy a Pyle PDMM01 which only costs around $60. The InH20 range only goes to 55 but is still a good meter for most tests.

Open testing- The measurement is taken in the flow input side of the jet just like the static test. You can drill a hole for the manometer test hose into the side of a tube adapter that is the same size and in-line with the jet and measure values while running full flow through the jet.

A PSI gauge is also recommended to put on the pump (HD sells some for $11 that already have hose matching fittings and can screw right onto many pumps)

The Octajet thread refers to my designs to overcome the problem with infinity type jets which is orifice plugging. Usually problematic because even if you have good screening on the footvalve and it is off the bottom, small organic debris likes to find it's way in.

I use 8 jet's with my low pressure designs which require more volume and that's how the octajet got it's name, but I refer to it as a multijet because as you are working with different pressures and sizes of jet's the needs change and if the goal is to eliminate plugs then the numbers of jets change depending on the jet's orifice size to achieve the best vacuum while still preventing plugs. My 2" jets designed for the range of 20-35psi working pressure only have 4 jets.

If you have questions please feel free to ask as I will try to answer as best I can. It took a long time to get to where I am in the understanding of jet design and improving the efficiency. Not that much info out there as it relates to this industry.

 

[principedeleon]

Okay i finally got it ..
In " open test" do you test it with the suction hoes connected or just submerged in water ?

In dealing with infinity jets in
A larger dredge wouldnt the gap be slightly larger making it less likely to clog up or
By any means you think any organic material withstand the high-pressure water coming from the jet.

 

[Timberdoodle]

Okay i finally got it ..
In " open test" do you test it with the suction hoes connected or just submerged in water ?

In dealing with infinity jets in
A larger dredge wouldnt the gap be slightly larger making it less likely to clog up or
By any means you think any organic material withstand the high-pressure water coming from the jet.

You can test with or without the hose, at the end of the hose etc.. Just test the same each time to compare apples to apples.

The 1/16th gap is a good starting point for a 4" jet. Due to the increase in area vs circumference with a larger jet the calculated orifice gets bigger and vise versa on the smaller jets. The 1/16th gap for a 4" is the same area as what a normal log jet nozzle area would be at 1/4 the diameter (or 1/16th the area)

So if you have a 4" now and build a 4" infinity you will be able to run the same flow/psi pump levels and compare the suction levels directly.

Material does like to clog them. Usually small twig like stuff or grass which then stops small sand etc..

 

[russau]

also to tune these jets installing a vacumn gauge on the suction side and a PSI gauge on the output side of this or any suction device will tell you exactly how that device is working to its absolut best performance!with these gauges you can adjust the device while watching the gauge so you can tweek it to its best suction without guessing!

 

[principedeleon]

okay.. I had a pressure gauge that i had laying around from checking the water psi for a water filter in the house; but it has a water hose connection. Can i connect it to where the blaster hoses goes on the front of the pump, would it read the same psi?

Hopefully ill be sucessful with my designs.
Should feel also as good as finding gold when you make diffrent discoverment testing your own designs .

I could just imagen running a 4" with half a gallon a day O.o

 

[Timberdoodle]

okay.. I had a pressure gauge that i had laying around from checking the water psi for a water filter in the house; but it has a water hose connection. Can i connect it to where the blaster hoses goes on the front of the pump, would it read the same psi?

Hopefully ill be sucessful with my designs.
Should feel also as good as finding gold when you make diffrent discoverment testing your own designs .

I could just imagen running a 4" with half a gallon a day O.o

That pressure gauge sounds like the one I was speaking of. Just connect to the blaster/hose output on the pump to get pressure reading.

The Gold divers couple jet was designed for a variety of uses and pump pressures so it was made adjustable which also helped when cleaning out debris. If I remember their tuning setup correctly they recommend running the pump at 3/4-full throttle and adjusting with a static test connection on the front of the jet. The best performance is then tuned for the orifice size and you are looking for the point of best vacuum to pump PSI. Since the couple jet was made for a variety of pump spec's their isn't any specific number for PSI provided that I can remember, but I would shoot for 30-35 PSI at the pump and start there.

As Russau said, you could connect a pressure gauge to the output also, but this may be hard to implement since it would require some additional connections and a pressure gauge that reads low pressures (0-5psi) accurately since their isn't much actual pressure in the output of the jet. This would be a great reading to have though and would give you a conversion # for lift capability.

 

[Timberdoodle]

GrizzlyGremlin- Keene make some nice equipment and I just wanted to say that if you are going to due some Mod's then a Keene 3" that comes with 4hp pump compressor etc.. may be a good starting point and you could convert this into a 4" down the road with some mod's to the flare/jet etc.. The jet's efficiency will result in a few options for the user.
1-More suction to an existing box bringing in more volume or help in overcoming longer hose losses
2-More suction allowing the user to reduce engine speed for the same throughput improving efficiency.
3-Increase in Jet size and suction flow vs applied jet water resulting in good suction but less total volume supplied to the box in relation to a jet log which means a smaller box matches total flow better.

 

[principedeleon]

Maybe always having a pressure guage make it important in checking any increase in psi cause of any reason of clogging or shutting close right ? After set then psi shouldnt shift for any obvious reason After seeing people running their gold divers jet with a clear water pump and you speaking of low psi levels , does this means these jets are not in need for the higher pressure pumps like a log jet? I have always dealt with the hoses creating small leaks from the pressure and the hose i use lately are high pressure hoes. But the problem cured after that some what .

 

[Timberdoodle]

Maybe having always having a pressure guage make it important in checking any increase in psi cause any reason of clogging or shutting close im i right ?

After set then psi shouldnt shift for any obvious reason.

And after seening people running there gold divers jet with a clear water pump and you speaking of low psi levels does this means these jets are not in need for the higher pressure pumps like like a log jet. The normal jets work in high pressures right ? I have always dealt the hoses creating small leak holes from the pressure and the hose is a high pressure hoes.

Yes, good observation. Good idea to keep a pressure gauge on the pump to monitor for clogging and it helps set the system up (engine speed) for each use.

The benefits of a more efficient jet does allow for less pressure while achieving the same suction levels, so you can use pumps that are not high pressure styles. I find most clear water pumps have enough pressure to run the systems. We are not talking about trash pumps although some might be able to do it. Although PSI is king when looking at the best vacuum, a pump need only supply the volume required to the jet at the working pressure required so it must perform both functions to meet the requirements. Most clear water pumps can supply 30-35psi working pressure without any problem so you just need to match up the volume to the working pressure.

 

[principedeleon]

Okay thanks for taking your time in responding my questions. And maybe in the future as ugly the prototype comes out you show us it; im not in for the looks rather for his ability. =]

 

[Timberdoodle]

Okay thanks for taking your time in responding my questions. And maybe in the future as ugly the prototype comes out you show us it; im not in for the looks rather for his ability. =]

Glad to help. Looking forward to hearing about your results. I'm looking to have some multijet's out for testing before spring.

 

[IdahoJake]

I run a 5hp Briggs & Stratton on my 4" Keene
Had to remove the air compressor to use all the HP for suction, plus have to run the engine wide open.


It works ok, but also have to baby the feed when in mostly sand to keep from getting plug ups in the hose that more horse power would eliminate.

View attachment 914803

GG~

Love this setup! Really nice.