Platinum pulled from Gulf (you guys will not believe this!)

[Crispin]

Howdy folks,
If you have not been following any of my threads recently (I can't blame you) then I am excavating a very old site in the Gulf of Mexico. I would like for some of these threads to be merged if possible my the mods because I think some great knowledge has been shared here. Anyway, lets start the roller coaster.

I went out to my site this Friday and hunted all the signals I never hunt, trying to get a better sample. I found three pieces of metal that passed the muriatic acid test. One was obvious silver and reduced well in the pan. You can see the other that in Crispin vs. Fire Nugget. The other two samples were bubbling up (reducing) but very slowly. I could tell they had been there for quite a while. I had them in the pan for two hours and made no progress in cleaning them up. Frustrated...I quit for the night and threw them in vinegar. This is what I found 24 hours later: Please click on the pictures and blow them up to get a better look. These all are in hi-res.

 

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[flyadive]

There are other metals ... Monel, Inconell, Hastalloy, Stellite, Titanium. To name a few. Could it be one of these metals

 

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[Crispin]

There are other metals ... Monel, Inconell, Hastalloy, Stellite, Titanium. To name a few. Could it be one of these metals

Possible: Will they past the gold and platinum tests as previously posted?

 

[Crispin]

Now, believe me, I'm not here to call it a fire nugget. It is certainly possible that you've found platinum. In fact, in rare circumstances platinum nuggets are found in nature -- and either way, humans have been using platinum for long enough that it isn't completely out of the question that you've found some.

BUT..

I'm going to challenge you on this one -- not because I'm saying you're wrong, but because science. I would like you to put that thing on a scale and see how much it weighs. Preferably, we'd check this against its size measurements and see whether your conclusion makes sense.

I encourage this because platinum is a fairly distinct metal and should be easy to recognize due to it properties. The following is a demonstration, not for you necessarily but for anyone who might be interested in what platinum looks like next to some other materials. Click the photos for some decent resolution.

First, here's a look at three rings of quite different designs. On the left is a ring made of stainless steel. The outside has both polished and matte finishes, but the inside is polished steel. Note the brilliant reflectivity of the inside. You can clearly make out the threads of the cloth it's sitting on. In the middle, we have a much more modestly-sized ring made of 95% platinum, 5% ruthenium. Note the rather dull, diffuse sheen of the outside edge. It started out shiny like the inside, but after a couple months of wearing it, it was completely covered in microscopic scratches. Every time I turned a door knob, it got a new gash. This is the nature of platinum -- nice and mushy. The metal becomes displaced rather than flaking off as other materials like gold tend to do when scratched. Note that in the relatively diffuse lighting of this picture, you can clearly see its color relative to the other two rings -- very distinct, cool and grey. Now, finally, the ring on the far right is made of sterling silver. I've polished it up, making it give off blinding levels of specular reflections. If not for the pitting and scratches, you could use it as a mirror. This one is "hefty" by my personal standards. Not something I'd wear. I dug it up.

View attachment 1187064

This next picture lets you see what the wear and tear looks like. Note the sanded-down appearance of the platinum versus the pitted and scarred sterling silver and the relatively impervious stainless steel.

View attachment 1187065

Putting them on a scale gives you an idea of another key characteristic of platinum: its heft. First up, here's the stainless steel ring.

View attachment 1187066

The tiny platinum ring in comparison:

View attachment 1187067

And the big chunky silver, which not surprisingly is the heaviest.

View attachment 1187069

However, given that the silver ring was enormous in comparison, it is quite impressive that the platinum rang in at almost 11 grams.

So, the point of this demonstration? If that chunk of metal you've found really is platinum, then it ought to weigh quite a bit for its size! On with the scale and caliper!

Thanks for chiming in. I welcome any good demonstrations and science. The piece I have is extremely small. I paired it up with a known Aluminum alloy of the same size. They are both also very thing. I put a penny for size reference:









Double the weight....hard to believe...I know. Passed acid tests as shown above.

 

[Crispin]

Can't be monel

Monel corrosion in seawater

 

[flyadive]

Possible: Will they past the gold and platinum tests as previously posted?

I don't know but you could try using a blow torch to melting point. Every metal melts at a different temp!
Last resort I guess.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/melting-temperature-metals-d_860.html

 

[releventchair]

I don't know but you could try using a blow torch to melting point. Every metal melts at a different temp!
Last resort I guess.

Metals - Melting Temperatures

Maybe after the acid induced probationary period.

 

[Crispin]

Platinum Plating | Rhodium Plating Info

 

[Crispin]

I don't know but you could try using a blow torch to melting point. Every metal melts at a different temp!
Last resort I guess.

Metals - Melting Temperatures

I would be better off buying a mel temp machine. Only need a few shavings, much more accurate, and a lot less dangerous...anybody want to pitch in?

 

[Crispin]

I don't know but you could try using a blow torch to melting point. Every metal melts at a different temp!
Last resort I guess.

Metals - Melting Temperatures

Thanks for the chart, very useful. Can rule out tin and cadmium with a soldering iron as well. I bookmarked it.

 

[mcl]

Double the weight....hard to believe...I know. Passed acid tests as shown above.

Thanks for the demo! Here's something to keep in mind. Platinum weighs over eight times (!) as much as aluminum by volume. If those two pieces were equally sized, then the one that is platinum should be closer to 1.75 grams.

Source:

http://www.coyotesteel.com/assets/img/PDFs/weightspercubicfoot.pdf

 

[DCMatt]

Are you anywhere near the debris field from the Challenger disaster?

 

[mcl]

Are you anywhere near the debris field from the Challenger disaster?

That's actually really interesting. Here's why.

According to the scale, his piece is about 2x the weight of aluminum by volume. The closest matches I could find for that characteristic were Europium and Germanium -- not very common at all. But, exotic materials often find a home in the aeronautical sciences, so who knows? There were two other metals that could be candidates if the either a) the sizes were not as close as it seems and/or b) Crispin's scale is uncalibrated. Those were titanium and vanadium. Vanadium in modern times is used mostly as an alloy but I think saw more use on its own in early automobiles. Titanium isn't out of the question although I'm not sure if the acid test results make sense or not, given what I read about it.

Any of these materials could make a lot more sense if we're talking about spacecraft wreckage.

On the other hand, there's always the chance that he actually has his hands on alloy. One interesting thing is that there is such a thing as "false positives" with acid tests, and I found a couple examples last night on Google where the acid test for platinum identified various grades of steel as platinum. You might say, "oh, well a magnet would solve that question", but that isn't necessarily true. Platinum is, at least in jewelry, alloyed with another metal for strength. While most of the time they alloy it with another platinum-group metal (e.g., ruthenium, irridium, maybe rhodium [?] or palladium [?]), some alloy it with cobalt. Cobalt happens to be magnetic. On the other side of the same coin, apparently not all types of steel are magnetic. Thus, to rule out steel as a false positive, you'd need a scale to check weights (or some more sophisticated technique, but why bother?). I can't speculate too much on what type of alloy it is if it really is an alloy, but it would have to be something alloyed with a significant amount of a very light metal, such as aluminum or magnesium. Guess that can be the next test. Take a match to it and see what happens! Maybe it will light on fire and we can call it a magnesium alloy.

 

[Crispin]

Are you anywhere near the debris field from the Challenger disaster?

I am on the central west coast of Florida. I really don't know where the debris field for the Challenger or the Columbia is.

 

[Crispin]

That's actually really interesting. Here's why.

According to the scale, his piece is about 2x the weight of aluminum by volume. The closest matches I could find for that characteristic were Europium and Germanium -- not very common at all. But, exotic materials often find a home in the aeronautical sciences, so who knows? There were two other metals that could be candidates if the either a) the sizes were not as close as it seems and/or b) Crispin's scale is uncalibrated. Those were titanium and vanadium. Vanadium in modern times is used mostly as an alloy but I think saw more use on its own in early automobiles. Titanium isn't out of the question although I'm not sure if the acid test results make sense or not, given what I read about it.

Any of these materials could make a lot more sense if we're talking about spacecraft wreckage.

On the other hand, there's always the chance that he actually has his hands on alloy. One interesting thing is that there is such a thing as "false positives" with acid tests, and I found a couple examples last night on Google where the acid test for platinum identified various grades of steel as platinum. You might say, "oh, well a magnet would solve that question", but that isn't necessarily true. Platinum is, at least in jewelry, alloyed with another metal for strength. While most of the time they alloy it with another platinum-group metal (e.g., ruthenium, irridium, maybe rhodium [?] or palladium [?]), some alloy it with cobalt. Cobalt happens to be magnetic. On the other side of the same coin, apparently not all types of steel are magnetic. Thus, to rule out steel as a false positive, you'd need a scale to check weights (or some more sophisticated technique, but why bother?). I can't speculate too much on what type of alloy it is if it really is an alloy, but it would have to be something alloyed with a significant amount of a very light metal, such as aluminum or magnesium. Guess that can be the next test. Take a match to it and see what happens! Maybe it will light on fire and we can call it a magnesium alloy.

I think we are making a little too much out of the weight. I'm not positive that is Aluminum. For all I know it could be an Aluminum alloy or steel itself. I just picked it because it was the only random piece of metal I had around that was about the same size. It does not bend with significant force so I think pure Aluminum is probably not it. As for the piece of platinum. It is not steel, it is completely smooth on one side and then has a raised design on the other side. I think it is small piece broken off something bigger. You better believe I will be looking for the something bigger.

 

[mcl]

I think we are making a little too much out of the weight. I'm not positive that is Aluminum. For all I know it could be an Aluminum alloy or steel itself. I just picked it because it was the only random piece of metal I had around that was about the same size. It does not bend with significant force so I think pure Aluminum is probably not it. As for the piece of platinum. It is not steel, it is completely smooth on one side and then has a raised design on the other side. I think it is small piece broken off something bigger. You better believe I will be looking for the something bigger.

All you need is a sample of a known weight. E.g., a silver U.S. coin, and compare them proportionally. You can figure out the weight by volume proportion by taking the weight of pure silver, multiplied by .90, and adding it to the weight of pure copper, multiplied by .1. Then, divide the weight of platinum by that sum, and it will tell you the weight of platinum in relative terms. All you need is a ballpark, i.e., if you have a coin that is about 2x as large, you can factor that in by dividing the platinum proportion by 2.

Anyway. I'll leave it be, just wanted to give my two cents. Treasures are treasures, in the end. Hope you find the other piece!

-mcl

 

[Ant]

"Quick Test Method for Determining Specific Gravity of Mineral Specimens":

Quick Test Method for Determining Specific Gravity of Mineral Specimens

 

[Scrappy]

Perhaps a condensed post would retain more interest. I'm bailing. Congrats I think

 

[Fletch88]

I'm with Flyadive, it could be any number of a dozen different metals that do or do not react with reagents. Just my thoughts.