Pirates, real and legendary, left their mark on Tampa area...

[ARC]

Pirates, real and legendary, left their mark on Tampa area | TBO.com and The Tampa Tribune

 

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[ECS]

Have you paid attention to the "supposed to"," another legend", "allegedly", "the story of" and "may have" that proliferate the article you so kindly linked above?
...and "But the lack of verifiable sources and first-hand accounts is troubling"- is an open nod to lore.

 

[Salvor6]

Have you paid attention to the "supposed to"," another legend", "allegedly", "the story of" and "may have" that proliferate the article you so kindly linked above?
...and "But the lack of verifiable sources and first-hand accounts is troubling"- is an open nod to lore.

ECS unfortunately pirates didn't keep detailed records like the Spanish did. They didn't want any evidence of their crimes biting them in the ass. A couple pirates that Rodney didn't mention were Capt. Brewster Baker and Pascal Miguel. You can find records of Bakers capture, trial and hanging in the National Archives, Washington, DC. Miguel had his headquarters at Rocky Bluff on the Manatee River. There are written records of his escape in the archives too. This is fact, not lore. Are you saying that Jean Laffite is just a legend and never existed? If so then you are missing out on a lot of history.

 

[ECS]

Salvor6, you seem to have misconstrued the content of several of my posts, and posted quote of Fisher Museum curator, Cori Convertito,("Pirates took their loot to notorious pirate hangouts in Port Royal and Tortuga. Prates didn't bury their money. They blew it as soon they could on women and booze") must have got you green around the gills.
Where have I ever stated that pirates were legend?
With that said, much lore has bee added to the adventures of real pirates.
For example, the aforementioned Pascal Miguel.
While he was a pirate and maintained lookouts and camps at Rocky Bluff, Terra Ceia, and Anna Maria islands, his center of operation was his plantation acting as a legitimate businessman.
Much of the lore about Miguel was derived by Charles Moore, Egmont Key Lighthouse keeper for 40 years, and Adrian P Jordan, editor of THE PUNTA GORDA HERALD, who wrote several pirate stories in the 1900's for that newspaper (Jordan also wrote about local ghost stories).
Then we have "THE SINGING RIVER" by Joe Warner, which contains many tales of the Manatee River.

 

[ARC]

ECS... I am curious...

You "discount" quotes and stories... or legends...
Basically...
What someone said...
Correct?

Then why do you quote someone...
one person...
The same one every time.
?
You are repeating what someone "said".
You have latched onto this one curators opinion... and taken it for gospel ?
Why ?
Since when did he become the great all knowing "see all that happened in history" guy that you seem to "lean on every word" ?

 

[ARC]

P.S>> You basically have found someone who believes the same thing you do...

That "is someone"... which gives you the "credibility" you need for your belief.

Everyone knows people buried...

Why don't you ?

Where ya been under a rock ?

:P

 

[Alamosmoon]

ARRC. There is more proof. In the University of South Florida's archives. Don't forget to bring your white gloves.

 

[ECS]

ECS... I am curious...
You "discount" quotes and stories... or legends...
Basically...
What someone said...
Correct?

Then why do you quote someone...
one person...
The same one every time.
?
You are repeating what someone "said".
You have latched onto this one curators opinion... and taken it for gospel ?
Why ?
Since when did he become the great all knowing "see all that happened in history" guy that you seem to "lean on every word" ?

I quoted Convertito because you and others went on the defensive, trying to connect the quote to me.
Incidentally, I believe that those who work for the Fisher Organization may have a bit of insight and knowledge concerning treasure, be it Spanish treasure fleets or that of pirates.
Do I take it as gospel?Do you? I accept it as an informed opinion, much more than the statement, "everyone knows people buried...".
What you seem to misunderstand, is that most of buried treasure tales are based on rumor and lore.
It is claimed that Lafitte was once at Fowlers Bluff, so he must have buried treasure there, Black Caesar was at Captiva Island, must be a pirate chest there, Brewster Baker careened his ship at Bokelia to scrape barnacles, had bury gold there, Manuel used Rocky Bluff, Anna Maria and Terra Ceia as lookout post, must be well known pirate camps with treasure, and on and on...
While the existence of these and other pirates are indeed fact, the stories of their buried treasure is based on legend, rumor, and lore that has grown since their times.
In a previous post, I mentioned two sources of some of these tales origin, there are several more.

 

[ECS]

... This is fact, not lore...

What is also fact and not lore concerns a certain intrepid treasure hunter who destroyed real Florida history in search of fabricated pirate history in search of fictitious buried treasure, and was arrested. The outcome being the State of Florida tightening the laws governing treasure hunting.
Would you be so inclined to provide further thoughts on this notorious treasure hunt ?

 

[ECS]

ARRC. There is more proof. In the University of South Florida's archives. Don't forget to bring your white gloves.

Of course there are documented letters of buried treasure and "X" marked maps.
Another quote to consider:
The ciphers should be considered "in the same light as the myriad 'treasure maps' which are sold in the southern states purporting to come own from pirate days".-Elizabeth Smith Friedman-1930: codebreaker for the US COAST GUARD DIVISION OF INTELLEGENCE, referring to the Beale Papers codes.
Friedman was involved with breaking the codes of rumrunners and coastal moonshiners, including those along the Manatee River and other Florida gulf coast towns.

 

[Alamosmoon]

I appreciate what you are saying, as I am by no means an authority on this subject.

I am, however, am a resident of the area. The sharing of family stories from folks whose families have been here for 100 + years, and the ever-constant reading of materials/publications have definitely swayed me over to the-real-believer side.

Pirates ride the waters, still today. Only with a much lower profile. I believe they (mostly) always have. Just seems logical.

I do, however, think there may have been a bit of embellishment to many of the tales we have heard. The universal game of 'telephone' is an example, or perhaps the real size of the fish that was caught. Who knows? I was not there. That is the only real proof I could ever personally possess.

i just read 'The Hand in the Box" story that was featured in the local paper about a family here. It also caught the attention of other great resources like USA Today. it was interesting and entertaining. Like that piece, there have been many others which aim to conclude there is evidence that pirates were indeed here.

If if it is an important subject to someone, it is good to pose an argument or question it, in order to feel confident of one's beliefs. A really great topic in which I look forward to learning more about.

Me? I definitely believe. Wondering if you could prove me wrong?

 

[ECS]

...
I knew Mel Fisher...
I know HIS thought on this... PERSONALLY...

You know how many people throw the Fishers name around...
INCLUDING ME. heh...

Did you also know Ovid Arnold whose name has been thrown around with Fishers?

 

[ARC]

You seem so convinced that no buried treasure exists ?

Is someone closing in on yours ?

Whats the motive in discounting BD's and others belief that things remain unfound in a State notorious for this.
Since native occupation ?

IS it you have looked into this to such a great depth... and why did you ? in search of treasure ?

I admire your ability to stand your ground with others on here but at the same time I have to question your motive in being on a treasure site that centers around the belief that buried treasures exist.

The whole theory that pirates did not bury treasure in ludicrous...

This not only defies facts ... but logical common sense.

 

[ECS]

ECS unfortunately pirates didn't keep detailed records like the Spanish did. They didn't want any evidence of their crimes biting them in the ass...

Granted, so where did all the information concerning pirates burying treasure in Florida originate?
Stories, tales, legends, and lore, and speculation by the writers of treasure books and magazines.
You are aware that most pirate ships conducted their activities under rules and articles that stated what share each and every crewmen would receive from captured plunder, and it would be portioned out soon after it was seized.
While the captain and first mate received the lion's share, each crewman has his own personal share.
I doubt that an entire crew of a pirate ship would bury their gain at a location they never may return, so the question to consider: If treasure was buried, who did it belong to-the captain, first mate, cannoneer and powder monkey?

 

[ECS]

You seem so convinced that no buried treasure exists ?
...
I admire your ability to stand your ground with others on here but at the same time I have to question your motive in being on a treasure site that centers around the belief that buried treasures exist...
The whole theory that pirates did not bury treasure in ludicrous...
This not only defies facts ... but logical common sense.

Well hold on there a minute, pilgrim.
When did I ever say that buried treasure does not exist?
What I have stated is that many buried treasure stories are just that or have origins in legend and lore, come from the minds of newspaper editors during the 1890-1930 time period.
In the 1920's a Jacksonville newspaper ran articles about long neck dinosaurs in the St Johns River chasing fisherman. Was this also based on fact? The same with most of the pirate treasure articles during that time period.
Good entertainment, but hardly based on facts.

 

[Salvor6]

Ok ... here we go...
Everyone close your eyes... oh wait you cannot read... ok never mind. :P

IMAGINE then...

You are on a ship...
You are surrounded by cut throat murderous people who are out for themselves and themselves only...
You own the clothes on your back and you have just been handed "your share" of the "take"...
Lets say it was a sizable "haul" this time... and you must "safe keep" this "share"...

Welp... I guess you could walk around the ship with it...
Sleep with one eye open the entire time...
Carry it in a sack around your waist or neck ?
Sheesh... heck... just set it down on deck... no ones gonna touch it... after all they all have there own share.

OH WAIT... THIS IS HOLLYWOOD DREAMY LAND... There is a CAPTAIN... HE will hold ALL of our shares... while we sleep...
Or leave the ship...
He will hold it and divvy it up when we get to port...
OR when we retire...
OR...
When we wake up dead.

Treasure and valuables IN MOST situations would have been cause of problems including mutiny at any second...
Theft is what these guys did... So they steal from them ? not you ?
Because you agreed ?... till when ?... and what do you do to "safeguard" this ? what methods ?

A thief is a thief... and all knew this about each other which would have only added to the paranoia PLUS... the plain GREED...
And throw in a little gold or treasure fever with this concoction and you have the makings of a floating insane asylum with cutthroats and weapons.

Ever heard the old saying "there is no honor among thieves"... ? - Where do you think this saying came from ? ... I will tell you... Pirates.

And everyone on board is only waiting for a sign...
For someone to "slip"...
This was no yacht club of "comrades".

Every ship had its own "rules" in place... but what would be the best way to "nip this in the bud"...
REMOVE the temptation...
Keep enough OR more than enough to "do whatever" is planned next... be it get drunk in some port or hit the next ship... whatever it may be.
BUT you are not "rolling around" with it...
UNLESS you are headed somewhere else... or back... or whatever...

Many pirates kept moving... THESE did not bury as often OR never...
Some that "worked an area"... buried.

I AM TIRED OF THESE ---> sites that say " Things you don't know about pirates"...
OR 10 myths of pirates...
THEY SUCK... And are repeating what the other wrote.

Pirates knew the death was the penalty and they could be caught...
But they also knew they could get away with it as well... EVEN legally.

They also heard of pirates living the good life... retiring... and never being caught.
THIS IS ALSO ONE reason WHY they buried...
The dream...
THIS was worth the risk...
And burying was considered by MOST... as "money in the bank".

NO ONE in the right state of mind goes into it thinking that they are "gonna die"...
Like all they hope / think they are the exception to the rule...
ONLY NOW in history LOOKING BACK... do we see "how short" MOST ... NOT ALL ... pirates lives could/can be...

They all thought they were the ones who would retire living the good life.

Reality is THEN...
As Reality is NOW...

Just as today we trust no one in a Crack house drug dealers pad...
We would have trusted no one then in same type of criminal "scene"...

The only way to "safekeep" the interest/share(s) and your life was to dig a damn hole.
I am sure that each case was different from another and mentality of crew played a huge factor...
Each case different from another.

I read an old account of row boats were lowered at anchor ...
Two by two or whatever... would load into them...
And were given "leave"... for a period to "dispense" of personal wealth's in private.

Also...
Do you really think that things of this nature are reported or told to anyone else other than who was standing at the damn hole ? ? ?
Ever hear of ole Juan from panther key... the real one... not the hyped out crap... ?
Read up on these things.

I have witnessed first hand... and have researched enough and beyond most on these subjects...
Many so long ago they are vage in my age...

But know this about all "legends"
Most stem from truths.

Whewww!

 

[banana skin slippers]

Hi ARRC,
I'd be interested in your old account of the row boats , if you may be willing give the source.
Bananas

 

[ECS]

...
I have witnessed first hand... and have researched enough and beyond most on these subjects...
Many so long ago they are vage in my age...
But know this about all "legends"
Most stem from truths.

You have witnessed what first hand?
Well you did go beyond on that post
...and I liked that doubtful disclaimer concerning "ALL" legends with "most stem from truths".
Maybe you need to cut back on that "vage".

 

[ECS]

ARRC, now that you have established your credentials concerning pirate psychology with that humorous entraining rant, please indulge us with some roleplaying.
You are a member of a pirate crew that had a successful capture of a lightly armed merchant vessel. During the boarding, you lost an eye during the skirmish, which entitles you to an extra share.
After dividing the shares amongst the crew, the Captain addresses the crew.
"Arrgh, me hearties, what thinks ye on putting all the booty in this chest and bury it in some remote spot in Floreeda, or ye be wantin' to sail to Torguga or Port Royal, find some wenches, and party like its 1799?
What say ye,arrgh?"

 

[ARC]

Heh.

Believe what you will ECS...

You can lead a horse to water ... but you cannot make it drink.

Aren't you the one who argued the point of Gaspar did not exist as well ?