✅ SOLVED Pinfire shotgun id

[Lygore]

Found this today in hawaii, not sure of manufacturer identification. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Also, these are my first that I've found, does anyone know how rare they are? Could they possibly from the civil war, even though they were found in Hawaii?



Thanks for looking!!

 

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[HutSiteDigger]

What you have is a 16-gauge pinfire.. Eley London co. started making these pinfires before the civil war, since you said you found this im assuming outside, if you look at photo #3 that is normally what one would look like from the 19th century that has been recoverd fromthe ground!! yours is not 19th century but more into the early 20th century because pinfire pins from the the mid 19th century had Eley London on them.

I have dug a few of these before and was stunned when I found out how vintage these can be. Yours does not have a makers mark on it like in the photo so it can be very hard to impossible to really ID the maker. If this was a pinfire from Eley London company this could be worth roughly $25 to $100 to a collector all day long. Kewl find.

1st picutre is of a Second Eley Bros pinfire and
2nd is from Eley London dated 1861
3rd picture of a dug 19th century Second Eley (SE) pinfire

 

[Lygore]

Yes I did find them outside. I was amazed how good of condition it was in. Thanks for the info!

 

[AaronN322]

yours is not 19th century but more into the early 20th century because pinfire pins from the the mid 19th century had Eley London on them.

This is a ridiculous statement.

There are literally dozens, if not a couple hundred, of manufacturers that made pinfire shotshells in the 1800s.

 

[HutSiteDigger]

This is a ridiculous statement.

There are literally dozens, if not a couple hundred, of manufacturers that made pinfire shotshells in the 1800s.

Every pinfire shell I seen from the 19th century is got a manufactures mark on it... Are you saying this pinshell he found is not 20th century? without a makers mark on it it is impossible, I have not seen any 19th century ones with just the gauge on the shell? IF you have evidence of ANY pinfire shell from the 19th century without makers mark on it, please post photos. There is only one type I have seen without makers mark on it and you can debate if this was or was not in the Civil War the photo is below... The only way to go about telling if say this photo below is from the Civil War is going by the corrosion on the artifact, if you say that this members pinfire pin is from the 19th century and civil war then I do not know what to say other then the fact for it being in the ground for 150 years must have not gotten no corrosion what so ever from tropical soil in Hawaii.

 

[HutSiteDigger]

 

[AaronN322]

You said that if it was made before 1900 it was only made by Eley. That is what I called you on. I simply stated there were many many many other manufacturers that made pinfire shot shells before the year 1900.

I can not tell the date of this cartridge by just looking at it in this condition, but the fact that it does not say it was made by Eley does not rule out that it was not around during the ACW, and especially the 19th century.

And when it comes to pinfire cartridges, and especially their relationship to the American Civil War, I know what I'm talking about, probably more so than about anyone.

 

[HutSiteDigger]

Well thank you for your expertise and welcome to the Forum.. I wish I could say this was a 16 gauge confederate pinfire but from the location and looking @ the photo it is pretty clear it is not, I knew a gentlemen trying to sell a 16 gauge pinfire that he said was confederate 16 gauge pinfire which , I have seen pinfire pins from the civil war with 12 gauge (with makers mark) but none with 16 gauge that does not have makers mark ,expect one that is listed as a 16 gauge confederate pinfire by the guy who dug it in Virginia. Thanks for your input I just saw know one answering this guys question for two days and decided too give it my input.

 

[AaronN322]

I too highly doubt this cartridge had anything to do with the American Civil War, but I can not definitively say it was not from that time period.

I actually may even be able to tell who made the shell based on the font of the letters. I will compare it with some others and report back sometime.

Also, as for the 16g, a couple in my picture are 16g that are from ACW battlefields.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Assuming that the photo AaronN322 posted is his own photo, I've "met" him on another internet relic-discussion forum. His collection of "dug" pinfire-ammo is the most impressive I've ever seen, and he is quite knowledgable on the subject too.

Most relic-diggers think that ANY pinfire ammo they find is from 1865 or earlier. Aaron knows that's not the case, and he is the guy I would ask to time-date date pinfire ammo.

 

[HutSiteDigger]

Assuming that the photo AaronN322 posted is his own photo, I've "met" him on another internet relic-discussion forum. His collection of "dug" pinfire-ammo is the most impressive I've ever seen, and he is quite knowledgable on the subject too.

Most relic-diggers think that ANY pinfire ammo they find is from 1865 or earlier. Aaron knows that's not the case, and he is the guy I would ask to time-date date pinfire ammo.

Yah thats pretty amazing, glad this post got the attention of a pinfire expert, indeed!

 

[AaronN322]

Assuming that the photo AaronN322 posted is his own photo

Oh they're mine alright!

Here's about 3/4 of the ones in that picture, taken with a special note just for you, thecannonballguy

 

[HutSiteDigger]

Also that is pretty kewl your from Canton. My grandfather lived and worked in Canton all his life he was a engineer for the Hoover Company which is now shutdown, I have very good memories of Canton. That is quite a collection of Pinfires you got!

 

[AaronN322]

Yeah, pinfire cartridges are kinda my thing.

People in my field (cartridge collectors) typically do not pay too much attention to excavated specimens, but since pinfire cartridges (and guns) played a pretty decent size role in the ACW, I feel one can not study their role without actually studying them (the ones that were actually used!)

Plus there is absolutely no documentation as to who either side imported the pinfire cartridges from except for the American made ones. So I figure the only way to figure out this info now is to find all of the cartridges! This has actually worked pretty well and I have drawn some pretty clear conclusions so far as to which side imported cartridges from which companies.

 

[HutSiteDigger]

I still remember when I dug my first pinfire near Fredericksburg,Virginia I had no idea what a pinfire was and was about to throw it in the junk box but since I dug it in a Civil War camp and the way it looked after I dug it had the 150 year old type look too it so I decided to do some research and was shocked! the one i dug had Eley London Co. engraved on it, but I wonder how many MDers have dug these up and thought they were junk like I almost did. Another reason too keep a junk box laying around just in case and not throwing the artifact away where you dug it.

Since your the guy to ask .. Is it typical for a pinfire from the 19th century (Civil War era) with just a gauge number and no Makers mark? I seen the photos of all yours and notice most of them if not all have a makers mark on them and all the ones I seen at shows and in other collections also do to.

 

[Lygore]

Thank you ALL for the various input on the shells. I was only wondering about the civil war part as this came from an area that had some house sites that had been around since pre-1800's up to the early 1900's. I figured it may have been from the same time era is all.

The lack of corrosion is understandable as I found it on the big island (NW part) it's kind of like a desert around here. Not much rain at all.

Either way, I love these finds! I've always been interested in pin fires as they're a unique type of round. Hopefully I'll find more!

 

[AaronN322]

Since your the guy to ask .. Is it typical for a pinfire from the 19th century (Civil War era) with just a gauge number and no Makers mark? I seen the photos of all yours and notice most of them if not all have a makers mark on them and all the ones I seen at shows and in other collections also do to.

Well I will answer this in a couple parts. First, a raised headstamp on a pinfire shotshell or cartridge is more often earlier than later as a general, broad rule. As for it ONLY having the gauge and no other marks it was more than likely a lower quality product sold for export, or sold without the maker's name on the box even. I am much more familiar with pinfire pistol cartridges than shotshells but this is pretty common with them. Take a company such as Gevelot/SFM for instance. They would have a higher quality version that cost more, and often said on the box it was a premium product, then they would have their regular product, but then also make a lower quality, and cheaper product that did not say SFM on it. A lot of the German/Austrian companies did this as well. I call them the company's "Wal-mart variation"

 

[CC Hunter]

A warm welcome is extended to you Aaron "The Pinfire Collector".

Expertise in specialized fields of collecting, is a great asset to our knowledge of history, and identification of finds.

From my own experience in searching sites from specific decades, 1850's, 1860's, and 1870's, I've noted that we only begin seeing a few pinfire shotgun shells found on occasion in 1860's sites, and then into the 1870's. By the 1880's the center primed shotgun shell became the more prevalent product.

There is only one type I have seen without makers mark on it and you can debate if this was or was not in the Civil War the photo is below... The only way to go about telling if say this photo below is from the Civil War is going by the corrosion on the artifact, if you say that this members pinfire pin is from the 19th century and civil war then I do not know what to say other then the fact for it being in the ground for 150 years must have not gotten no corrosion what so ever from tropical soil in Hawaii.

HutSiteDigger,

Your posted photo of a pinfire shotgun shell, "without makers mark", clearly shows the raised letters of EY and B above the 12.
This is certainly an ELEY BROS raised mark stamping on this shotgun shell.

Furthermore, corrosion on artifacts is caused by a great number of variables, and cannot be used to accurately determine the age of items. I've seen brass items from the 17th century, in hand and freshly excavated, that looked nearly as though they were lost well within my lifetime. On the other end of the spectrum, I've seen items from the 1960's corroded to the point of near unrecognizable condition. Moisture, soil minerals, acids, salts, and other factors, all affect the condition of metals buried beneath the surface of the ground.

Certain areas of Hawaii are very dry and almost desert-like. Items from the 19th Century, recovered from arid desert locations, can hardly be compared with items recovered from the forests in Virgina, with predominately acid rich soils from deciduous hardwoods, or from farm fields laden with fertilizer.

CC Hunter

 

[CC Hunter]

For more in-depth history on Ely Cartridges, the following reference is recommended:

Eley Cartridges | About the Book

According to C.W. Harding, in the reference book ELEY CARTRIDGES, all cartridge/shell headstamps that carry a raised letter headstamp and contain the name Eley Bros or EB are from the period 1861 through 1874.

The pinfire shell posted by HutSiteDigger above, and described as being unmarked other than the numeral 12 stamp, is in fact shown on the top of the main page for the website for Harding's book. This would be the third one from the right, with ELEY BROS * 12 * LONDON as the headstamp.


CC Hunter

 

[Kentuck]

I found one this evening, metal detecting out in front of my house here in south Texas. It only has the initials "E.B." at the top, then on the left and right, it has "No. 12", and across the bottom, it says "LONDON". Never seen one except in pictures before. I don't know what year this one was made or how common it was here in the south.