Springfield
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And so it is with all history.
Phoenix History
- Thread starter Somero
- Start date
And so it is with all history.
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Springfield,
It's not so much the historians who make honest efforts to piece history together and end up with less than the true facts that bothers me, but the "historians" who make up their history out of whole cloth/pure fiction.
Take care,
Joe
It's not so much the historians who make honest efforts to piece history together and end up with less than the true facts that bothers me, but the "historians" who make up their history out of whole cloth/pure fiction.
Take care,
Joe
Last edited:
Matthew Roberts
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Photos of the remains of the home of Jack Swilling 38th street and Van Buren road in Phoenix taken about 1920.
Swilling was the 2nd man to settle in the Salt River Valley, John YT Smith being the first. Swillings home was known as "Swilling's Castle" and was then located at what was called Mill City (today a part of Phoenix).
Nothing remains of the Castle today but the irrigation ditch Swilling and others dug there is still in use today at 40th street and Van Buren in Phoenix.
Matthew K. Roberts
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Springfield,
Along those lines, here is something I wrote some time ago:
[TD="width: 100%"] When trying to piece together the "authentic" truth about the LDM and Adolph Ruth, it doesn't hurt to be aware that a great many "authentic" stories have been complete fiction. Here is one such fabrication from Peter's old site:
"Referring back to the above photo of the Hakes and their young son Daniel. I met Daniel and his wife Melissa at the very last Arizona Pioneers reunion held in Phoenix in 1960. Daniel was in his 80's then and a historian of the Hakes and Morse families. Daniel passed away a few years later but his wife lived on into the mid 1970's passing on at the age of 95. While visiting with Beatrice Lewis of Mesa ( wife of Al Lewis of the Goldfield mines) and Mrs. Daniel Hakes, I had the occasion to listen to the story of Adolph Ruth and the Hakes and Morse involvement, parts of which I have related here in this post. Hopefully this information might be used to pursue a new and more authentic angle in furthering research on the mystery of Adolph Ruth."
_________________________________________________________________________
That sounds pretty "authentic" until you consider the fact that the author of that post was only 9-10 years old in 1960.....and not living in Arizona. To be precise, the author was born on Oct. 16, 1950. Why do people make up these "facts"? Could it just be ego, or are they paving the way for a future book that will include these "first person" accounts? IMHO, the most trusted sources should be checked seven ways from Sunday, if you are looking for information concerning the LDM. I know......I know. It sucks!
Joe Ribaudo
[/TD]
cactusjumper
Gold Member
More historically accurate, and inaccurate history on Phoenix and LDM history can be found here:
DesertUSA.com/mb3 ? View topic - Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery
Joe Ribaudo
DesertUSA.com/mb3 ? View topic - Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery
Joe Ribaudo
Hal Croves
Silver Member
Matthew Roberts,
Great photographs. What they did to Swilling in his last days was horrible but his daughters life was far more tragic. It seems that she fell into a bottle, being chased by a life of prostitution. She died alone, in her office (room), a single gunshot to the chest. Amazing how people simply slip away in history.
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Matthew,
You wrote this on DUSA:
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Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:11 pm
Posts: 33
Location: Huntington Beach, Ca.[/TD]
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[TD]Matthew Roberts wrote:
At the 2012 Dutch Hunters Rendezvous, Thomas E. Glover was the Saturday night featured speaker. Mr. Glover spoke about Sims Ely’s book, The Lost Dutchman Mine. During the speech Mr. Glover told the crowd Sims Ely did not write the book, a writer at Morrow and Co. Press, the books publisher, supposedly wrote the book from a submitted manuscript. At the end of the talk I was even more confused about the book than in the beginning. I chalked that up to Mr. Glover building interest for his new, soon to be printed books which will cover the Ely subject.
Unable to get answers to my many questions I attempted to contact the William Morrow and Company Press in November 2012. I learned Morrow and Co. no longer exists as Morrow and Co., but through sales, mergers and acquisitions today is a part of News Corp. (NC) the largest publisher of books and magazines in the world. Harper-Collins (HC), a subsidiary of News Corp, is today the parent company of the former Wm. Morrow and Company. News Corp. Harper-Collins (NCHC) retains all the imprint records of books acquired through a series of mergers and acquisitions, including the records of Morrow and Company. HC still retains certain printing rights to the book. News Corp. Harper-Collins is located on 10 E. 53rd Street in New York City, they have an office here in Los Angeles.
It took me four months and persistence to contact someone at HC who was able and willing to help me find the answers I was looking for. It took another 5 months to finally get those answers.
When the book was being prepared for publication, Morrow and Co. assigned just two employees to guide the book through to it’s 1st printing. Irwin Schope was assigned art and layout duties, and John Willey was assigned editing duties. Schope did the cover art and maps that appear as well as the general format and layout of the text and chapters. Willey edited the chapters and arranged them in the order we see them today. No one at Morrow and Co. either wrote or rewrote the book, this according to the records retained by Harper-Collins.
Harper-Collins explained, editing a book and writing a book are entirely different endeavors. Neither Willey nor Schope were on the Morrow staff as writers. In fact, Willey was not even an editor, he was the treasurer of Morrow and Company. Morrow and Company employed writers who did rewrites and screen plays from scripts as they did a lot of work with Broadway plays and radio and television. There is a distinct difference in publishing between editors and writers. The Morrow and Company records from 1953 shows none of Morrow's writers were involved with the books writing.
In the Morrow records is a page, written by Sims Ely, entitled Authors Note, in which Sims Ely implies he is the books author and signs the document as the Author of the book. The page is signed by Sims Ely. Also in the record is the documentation Sims Ely retained the copyright for the book with all rights reserved. As Harper-Collins explained, had Morrow and Co. written, or rewritten the book they (Morrow) would have the copyrights. H-C explained this was an important and critical point. No publisher would write a book without retaining the copyright and a book is considered written or rewritten if 41% of the work is penned by the publisher.
Editing a book is not writing or rewriting, it is correcting grammar and punctuation, arranging the sentences, paragraphs and chapters into readable sequence and deleting parts that are redundant or boring to the reader. Adjectives and adverbs are added in editing but not subjects, people , places or events. Editors do not write or rewrite books, they aid in the grammatical, sequential and interesting flow of the book.
Another extremely interesting point came to light concerning Ely’s book. When the book was printed it was assigned the Library of Congress Code Number 53-10167. It was also assigned the Library of Congress Classification Number 1.7G subclass GR Western Folklore, fiction.
Harper Collins explained this is the proper classification for not only Ely’s book, but for all Lost Dutchman Mine books. The Lost Dutchman Mine is a Western Folklore Legend, not a historical Non-Fiction as current Dutchman books masquerade themselves. At best it is historical Fiction, a loose combination of folklore and incidental facts.
Why is this classification important ? As HC explains, over the years, small, local publishers and fly by night printers have corrupted the LDM book classification to become a "979.175 type Non-Fiction book". As if it were a True, Non-Fiction Historical Documentary. The current LDM books do this to garner a wider audience and increase the price of the book.
But this is deceptive advertising, bait and switch. There is a large market that deals only in True, Historical Non-Fiction books and documentary accounts, this market is deceived by the false classification and buys the books with the understanding they are Non-Fiction documentary and finding out later they bought a combination of loosely woven historical fiction.
One of the reason recent Lost Dutchman books sell so poorly is because large lot buyers have been burned by the false classifications and have been stuck with hundreds of books they must unload onto the Fiction market at great loss. They are understandably shy about purchasing large lots of these type books and now buy small quantities as they sell them, if they sell at all.
If News Corp. Harper Collins were to ever publish a Lost Dutchman Mine book today it would receive the same type of classification given the Sims Ely book in 1953 1.7G GR Western Folklore . Wm. Morrow and Company of New York was one of the leading and most reputable publishers of their day. News Corp. Harper Collins is today the leading and most respected publisher in the world. Publishing has fallen considerably with the influx of the small local printing houses. An interesting and eye opening look into today’s publishing world from the largest and most respected publisher of books in the world.
Now, if Sims Ely didn’t write The Lost Dutchman Mine, and it wasn’t Wm. Morrow and Company, who did ? (The above is my personal opinion based on my conversations and correspondence with News Corp, Harper-Collins.)
Sims Ely had the peculiar habit of writing a detailed statement in one chapter of his book, and later, in a following chapter, would slip in the source of that statement, so subtly you almost wouldn't make the connection unless you read the book several times over.
In chapter 7, Ely details Waltz's arrival in America and states he arrived with his father, Karl, and mother, Judith. Further he state the name of Waltz's brother, and that the Waltz's were accompanied by the Weiser family.
Later, in chapter 9, Ely casually reveals the source of his detailed statements about Waltz and his family. Ely begins by talking about one of Waltz's neighbors, A.L. Henshaw and Henshaw's son Fred. Ely writes : .... "Waltz even volunteered to him (A.L. Henshaw) information about his boyhood in Germany and the circumstances of his coming to the United States."
This is interesting because Henshaw's son Fred, was the source for many authors who wrote about Waltz's life, as was another man, Frank K. Alkire.
Frederick Higham, Barney Barnard, John Mitchell, Barry Storm, R. Joseph Allen, Sims Ely and R. Blair are among the many who used these men as sources for Waltz and his life.
Matthew
___________________________________
Anything is possible, but I don't believe Frank T. Alkire ever mentioned Jacob Waltz in any of his writings. Don't know who Frank K. Alkire is. Care to elaborate here, or over on DUSA?
Joe Ribaudo
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You wrote this on DUSA:
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Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:11 pm
Posts: 33
Location: Huntington Beach, Ca.[/TD]
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[TD]Matthew Roberts wrote:
At the 2012 Dutch Hunters Rendezvous, Thomas E. Glover was the Saturday night featured speaker. Mr. Glover spoke about Sims Ely’s book, The Lost Dutchman Mine. During the speech Mr. Glover told the crowd Sims Ely did not write the book, a writer at Morrow and Co. Press, the books publisher, supposedly wrote the book from a submitted manuscript. At the end of the talk I was even more confused about the book than in the beginning. I chalked that up to Mr. Glover building interest for his new, soon to be printed books which will cover the Ely subject.
Unable to get answers to my many questions I attempted to contact the William Morrow and Company Press in November 2012. I learned Morrow and Co. no longer exists as Morrow and Co., but through sales, mergers and acquisitions today is a part of News Corp. (NC) the largest publisher of books and magazines in the world. Harper-Collins (HC), a subsidiary of News Corp, is today the parent company of the former Wm. Morrow and Company. News Corp. Harper-Collins (NCHC) retains all the imprint records of books acquired through a series of mergers and acquisitions, including the records of Morrow and Company. HC still retains certain printing rights to the book. News Corp. Harper-Collins is located on 10 E. 53rd Street in New York City, they have an office here in Los Angeles.
It took me four months and persistence to contact someone at HC who was able and willing to help me find the answers I was looking for. It took another 5 months to finally get those answers.
When the book was being prepared for publication, Morrow and Co. assigned just two employees to guide the book through to it’s 1st printing. Irwin Schope was assigned art and layout duties, and John Willey was assigned editing duties. Schope did the cover art and maps that appear as well as the general format and layout of the text and chapters. Willey edited the chapters and arranged them in the order we see them today. No one at Morrow and Co. either wrote or rewrote the book, this according to the records retained by Harper-Collins.
Harper-Collins explained, editing a book and writing a book are entirely different endeavors. Neither Willey nor Schope were on the Morrow staff as writers. In fact, Willey was not even an editor, he was the treasurer of Morrow and Company. Morrow and Company employed writers who did rewrites and screen plays from scripts as they did a lot of work with Broadway plays and radio and television. There is a distinct difference in publishing between editors and writers. The Morrow and Company records from 1953 shows none of Morrow's writers were involved with the books writing.
In the Morrow records is a page, written by Sims Ely, entitled Authors Note, in which Sims Ely implies he is the books author and signs the document as the Author of the book. The page is signed by Sims Ely. Also in the record is the documentation Sims Ely retained the copyright for the book with all rights reserved. As Harper-Collins explained, had Morrow and Co. written, or rewritten the book they (Morrow) would have the copyrights. H-C explained this was an important and critical point. No publisher would write a book without retaining the copyright and a book is considered written or rewritten if 41% of the work is penned by the publisher.
Editing a book is not writing or rewriting, it is correcting grammar and punctuation, arranging the sentences, paragraphs and chapters into readable sequence and deleting parts that are redundant or boring to the reader. Adjectives and adverbs are added in editing but not subjects, people , places or events. Editors do not write or rewrite books, they aid in the grammatical, sequential and interesting flow of the book.
Another extremely interesting point came to light concerning Ely’s book. When the book was printed it was assigned the Library of Congress Code Number 53-10167. It was also assigned the Library of Congress Classification Number 1.7G subclass GR Western Folklore, fiction.
Harper Collins explained this is the proper classification for not only Ely’s book, but for all Lost Dutchman Mine books. The Lost Dutchman Mine is a Western Folklore Legend, not a historical Non-Fiction as current Dutchman books masquerade themselves. At best it is historical Fiction, a loose combination of folklore and incidental facts.
Why is this classification important ? As HC explains, over the years, small, local publishers and fly by night printers have corrupted the LDM book classification to become a "979.175 type Non-Fiction book". As if it were a True, Non-Fiction Historical Documentary. The current LDM books do this to garner a wider audience and increase the price of the book.
But this is deceptive advertising, bait and switch. There is a large market that deals only in True, Historical Non-Fiction books and documentary accounts, this market is deceived by the false classification and buys the books with the understanding they are Non-Fiction documentary and finding out later they bought a combination of loosely woven historical fiction.
One of the reason recent Lost Dutchman books sell so poorly is because large lot buyers have been burned by the false classifications and have been stuck with hundreds of books they must unload onto the Fiction market at great loss. They are understandably shy about purchasing large lots of these type books and now buy small quantities as they sell them, if they sell at all.
If News Corp. Harper Collins were to ever publish a Lost Dutchman Mine book today it would receive the same type of classification given the Sims Ely book in 1953 1.7G GR Western Folklore . Wm. Morrow and Company of New York was one of the leading and most reputable publishers of their day. News Corp. Harper Collins is today the leading and most respected publisher in the world. Publishing has fallen considerably with the influx of the small local printing houses. An interesting and eye opening look into today’s publishing world from the largest and most respected publisher of books in the world.
Now, if Sims Ely didn’t write The Lost Dutchman Mine, and it wasn’t Wm. Morrow and Company, who did ? (The above is my personal opinion based on my conversations and correspondence with News Corp, Harper-Collins.)
Sims Ely had the peculiar habit of writing a detailed statement in one chapter of his book, and later, in a following chapter, would slip in the source of that statement, so subtly you almost wouldn't make the connection unless you read the book several times over.
In chapter 7, Ely details Waltz's arrival in America and states he arrived with his father, Karl, and mother, Judith. Further he state the name of Waltz's brother, and that the Waltz's were accompanied by the Weiser family.
Later, in chapter 9, Ely casually reveals the source of his detailed statements about Waltz and his family. Ely begins by talking about one of Waltz's neighbors, A.L. Henshaw and Henshaw's son Fred. Ely writes : .... "Waltz even volunteered to him (A.L. Henshaw) information about his boyhood in Germany and the circumstances of his coming to the United States."
This is interesting because Henshaw's son Fred, was the source for many authors who wrote about Waltz's life, as was another man, Frank K. Alkire.
Frederick Higham, Barney Barnard, John Mitchell, Barry Storm, R. Joseph Allen, Sims Ely and R. Blair are among the many who used these men as sources for Waltz and his life.
Matthew
___________________________________
Anything is possible, but I don't believe Frank T. Alkire ever mentioned Jacob Waltz in any of his writings. Don't know who Frank K. Alkire is. Care to elaborate here, or over on DUSA?
Joe Ribaudo
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Hal Croves
Silver Member
I am reading back through your posts and wanted to ask how we know the photograph's date (is it marked?) and while I respect your opinion, why would that man have to be Waltz? Higham wrote that Waltz never knew Julia directly until after the flood. This man looks as if has has squatted on that stool before, however he does look uncomfortable with having his picture taken.
Hal Croves
Silver Member
Somero,
I was digging and came across this more recent, yet odd example of a Superstition "Tall Tale" which, as everyone knows, are based on fiction.
I just wanted to know if you had ever read it before.
Have you heard the tale of the Two Legged Dog, the Sailor, and the Idiot Savant ?
They were walking the freeway through Peter's Canyon late one morning when suddenly, the Idiot Savant stopped dead in his tracks -- startled by the sudden appearance of a rather large and cantankerous Old Prospector who, thinking back, only offered his first name, which I remember was Francis.
Francis was resting peacefully on a stretch of ground he considered to be ideal, because of its many reliable pools of cold water and shade, when the Two Legged Dog passed by, completely indifferent to any presence of the old man. As you can imagine, this was taken by Francis as a rude gesture, which angered the old man to a terrible degree, and rightly so ! When the Sailor who, as a matter of fact, was hauling 50 gallons of ice, passed, he too failed to acknowledge Francis which, at this point, incensed the Old Prospector even more, almost past the point at which any man should have to bear.
Being a native of Arizona, Francis was naturally inclined towards politenesses, and while he did live the reclusive life of a Prospector, he was at heart, a True Gentleman, although one would not have guessed it by the time the Idiot Savant arrived. As the Idiot Savant approached, Francis was boiling with contempt and thought to himself, "I am going to strike this person with terrible blow if they fail to greet me, and I would be justified in doing so, as it would be an unprovoked insult to my honor." Well, the Idiot Savant, who noticed very little and understood even less, upon sighting Francis, instinctively and quite beautifully bowed, as any subject to a great king might. This unexpected gesture greatly surprised the old man who, was but a moment away from terrible violence. Feeling acknowledged and appreciating the Idiot Savant's kind gesture, Francis let the young lad pass without incident and returned to his perfect place in the sun besides the clean, cold pools of Superstition water.
Years later, the Two Legged Dog and the Sailor were spotted rowing up the Salt River on a raft made from old iron wood logs, carrying a unknown load of covered somethings. The Idiot Savant was never seen again but some folk believe that he found a herd of miniature deer and got lost following their tiny tracks.
I found the story funny anyway.
I was digging and came across this more recent, yet odd example of a Superstition "Tall Tale" which, as everyone knows, are based on fiction.
I just wanted to know if you had ever read it before.
Have you heard the tale of the Two Legged Dog, the Sailor, and the Idiot Savant ?
They were walking the freeway through Peter's Canyon late one morning when suddenly, the Idiot Savant stopped dead in his tracks -- startled by the sudden appearance of a rather large and cantankerous Old Prospector who, thinking back, only offered his first name, which I remember was Francis.
Francis was resting peacefully on a stretch of ground he considered to be ideal, because of its many reliable pools of cold water and shade, when the Two Legged Dog passed by, completely indifferent to any presence of the old man. As you can imagine, this was taken by Francis as a rude gesture, which angered the old man to a terrible degree, and rightly so ! When the Sailor who, as a matter of fact, was hauling 50 gallons of ice, passed, he too failed to acknowledge Francis which, at this point, incensed the Old Prospector even more, almost past the point at which any man should have to bear.
Being a native of Arizona, Francis was naturally inclined towards politenesses, and while he did live the reclusive life of a Prospector, he was at heart, a True Gentleman, although one would not have guessed it by the time the Idiot Savant arrived. As the Idiot Savant approached, Francis was boiling with contempt and thought to himself, "I am going to strike this person with terrible blow if they fail to greet me, and I would be justified in doing so, as it would be an unprovoked insult to my honor." Well, the Idiot Savant, who noticed very little and understood even less, upon sighting Francis, instinctively and quite beautifully bowed, as any subject to a great king might. This unexpected gesture greatly surprised the old man who, was but a moment away from terrible violence. Feeling acknowledged and appreciating the Idiot Savant's kind gesture, Francis let the young lad pass without incident and returned to his perfect place in the sun besides the clean, cold pools of Superstition water.
Years later, the Two Legged Dog and the Sailor were spotted rowing up the Salt River on a raft made from old iron wood logs, carrying a unknown load of covered somethings. The Idiot Savant was never seen again but some folk believe that he found a herd of miniature deer and got lost following their tiny tracks.
I found the story funny anyway.
1940 Film https://archive.org/details/70-178C
Hal Croves
Silver Member
122 years ago today, at exactly 9:00 in the morning, Brian Philip Darrell Duppa passed into history.
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