part of wooden old ship "washes ashore" in South Florida

[Au_Dreamers]

Are there any witnesses of the structure floating along the shore? I'm wondering if it was truly washed ashore or exposed by beach erosion.

Copper sheathing was minimally used by Spain and then mostly during after 1800.

Ship sheathing began approx...
Spain 1514
Portuguese 1580
English 1760
French & Dutch 1780

Copper on English ships approx; 1770
Spain 1810
French 1778

Source Treasure Diver's Guide. pages 58, 61-62

 

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[Diver_Down]

Are there any witnesses of the structure floating along the shore? I'm wondering if it was truly washed ashore or exposed by beach erosion.

Copper sheathing was minimally used by Spain and then mostly during after 1800.

Ship sheathing began approx...
Spain 1514
Portuguese 1580
English 1760
French & Dutch 1780

Copper on English ships approx; 1770
Spain 1810
French 1778

Source Treasure Diver's Guide. pages 58, 61-62

Thanks for the info. This should be included in my other post on the other thread pertaining to this wreck. It is most definitely "new" and not just been exposed by beach erosion. Based on the info that you provided, I guess I can eliminate my fanciful dreams of Hobbit's thread.

Edit - I couldn't remember which came first the lead or copper. I know about the 1715 fleet and the lead sheathing. I thought that the copper predated the use of lead. Hence, my idea pertaining to the 1641 Fleet.

 

[ivan salis]

guana river state park area is where it washed up so by that --the state claims "ownership" -- I heard it has a copper sheathed bottom --so that's about 1770 era and that it had circle saw type markings in the timbers --likely from a steam powered saw to cut the timbers --time frame era about 1813 --so likely its a early 1800's time frame cargo ship

lead was the earlier choice for hull sheathing ..copper later on ...rough time frame wise I use 1770 as a general cut off point ..if copper hulled post 1770 --if lead pre 1770 as most of the Spanish treasure fleet sailed before 1770 (the last Mexico fleet sail in 1789 and the last south American one in 1740)...lead would be the hull metal to look for most treasure wrecks

plus at 30 degrees ( roughly the guana river area) the reported loss area of the 1641 fleet -- 5 vessels were reported as lost 4 merchant ships with no survivors and 1 patache that had some survivors ( found by another patache sent from cuba)...reportedly it was found about 5 leagues offshore ( 13 miles at 2.6 per mile or 15 miles at 3 per ) either way it was past the 12 mile legal limit ...if theres a reef 13 to 15 miles offshore it might have the wreck of the patache upon it --which would explain why it was still above water with people on it when they were found

 

[Boatlode]

guana river state park area is where it washed up so by that --the state claims "ownership" -- I heard it has a copper sheathed bottom --so that's about 1770 era and that it had circle saw type markings in the timbers --likely from a steam powered saw to cut the timbers --time frame era about 1813 --so likely its a early 1800's time frame cargo ship

lead was the earlier choice for hull sheathing ..copper later on ...rough time frame wise I use 1770 as a general cut off point ..if copper hulled post 1770 --if lead pre 1770 as most of the Spanish treasure fleet sailed before 1770 (the last Mexico fleet sail in 1789 and the last south American one in 1740)...lead would be the hull metal to look for most treasure wrecks

plus at 30 degrees ( roughly the guana river area) the reported loss area of the 1641 fleet -- 5 vessels were reported as lost 4 merchant ships with no survivors and 1 patache that had some survivors ( found by another patache sent from cuba)...reportedly it was found about 5 leagues offshore ( 13 miles at 2.6 per mile or 15 miles at 3 per ) either way it was past the 12 mile legal limit ...if theres a reef 13 to 15 miles offshore it might have the wreck of the patache upon it --which would explain why it was still above water with people on it when they were found

Ivan, I don't see any reefs or shallow water that far offshore - the water in that range is all 50 - 70 feet deep. I'm looking at NOAA Chart #11488.

 

[RTR]

WHY are they insisting on calling this 48 foot boat a "Ship" ?

 

[ivan salis]

the chunk is 48 foot ......the vessel it came from might be bigger than 48 foot

 

[seekerGH]

Guana Rive Aquatic Preserve

https://floridadep.gov/fco/aquatic-preserve/locations/guana-river-marsh-aquatic-preserve

 

[Blak bart]

If you take a look at the pictures thet I posted you will see that they differ from the cache of photos provided by marc, than the ones sent to me by my friend. It is almost certainly washed in and not uncovered. In the pic it had definitely been deposited on the peack of the high tide berm. I got that pic 2 - 3 days before the story broke, I could see where at lest one piece was torn away and carried off . My source said it had migrated north about 25 feet each
High tide event, before the crowds and officals got envolved. My thought is 1760-1790s . It looks simalar to whats left of the pillar dollar wreck here in the keys looks to be a section of bottom, it shows the sub floor or bilge boards still in tact. Sailors would have walked that run while checking cargo lashings. Of course this is just a guess from what ive seen of other wrecks and there construction. Also this is just a small section of a much larger vessal I believe.

 

[Diver_Down]

Black Bart - to add to your point about washing in:

It was recently freed from it's resting place from the sand overburden and moved by the currents to it's current resting spot. It is a local wreck. Note the lack of epibiota. If it was adrift from a southern locale, it would have epibiota beginning to take hold and established. This section of hull shows an amazing level of conservation with no epibiota.

 

[ARC]

Black Bart - to add to your point about washing in:

It was recently freed from it's resting place from the sand overburden and moved by the currents to it's current resting spot. It is a local wreck. Note the lack of epibiota. If it was adrift from a southern locale, it would have epibiota beginning to take hold and established. This section of hull shows an amazing level of conservation with no epibiota.

What is your definition of "local" ?

Of course it came from the south.

Lack of epibiota ?

 

[ARC]

the chunk is 48 foot ......the vessel it came from might be bigger than 48 foot

This is just a "section"... part of much larger vessel IMO as well.

 

[ivan salis]

yes it was most likely a sand covered wreck on the sea floor that became uncovered and floated up moving with the tide and wind --note the lack of sea shell / marine life on the hull .... due to being sand covered ..marine life will attach its self to exposed timbers over time

 

[Bum Luck]

I'm certainly not an experienced wreck diver, but do have a passing experience with wood, and in the top picture the broken chunk sure looks fresh for being centuries old and submerged. Is that definitive?

Another thing: If there's that much good wood left, it could be dendro'd to fix the date certain.

 

[ARC]

I'm certainly not an experienced wreck diver, but do have a passing experience with wood, and in the top picture the broken chunk sure looks fresh for being centuries old and submerged. Is that definitive?

Another thing: If there's that much good wood left, it could be dendro'd to fix the date certain.

Bum... long time brother...

Well there are many "answers" to the questions that are present with each and every wreck... each unique like a finger print.

Many factors exist when trying to deduce / determine the "age" or "story" of a shipwreck that factor into this equation process.

First...

The situation of a shipwrecks "grave" is the first and foremost consideration as to the way a "wreck rests"... and the way a wreck deteriorates.

The spectrum ranges from...

Nothing left... to the entire wreck is intact... down to the smallest detail... there is a wreck that is 2,000 years old that is so intact the food is still there.

But basically ALL factors of "preservation" are based on two main things... situation and environment.

IF a wreck is exposed to things that are detrimental to its well being then of course it is consumed much faster than one that lies in an environment that is void of these same attributes.

Now... with all this being said...

Lets take this section of wreck for example...

IMO... she sank in heavy sanded area... this section became "embedded" / "covered"... which preserved THIS section and perhaps more exists...

But never the less... the sand...DEPENDING on depth IN sand and a multitude of factors surrounding the sand composition and environmental chemistry preserved this section from deterioration.

Now... as we all know... sand ALWAYS moves... eventually.

This section may have over time been covered and uncovered 100's of times... even if only briefly... for a moment... for a month... for whatever...

OR... never... ever.

She could have come to a rest... the section we see now embedded... and has remained covered from that day... until now. (which is highly probable).

So...

In the case of things like the section... the old phrase of "if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, then it must be a duck".

Does not apply.

Hope this shed a bit of light.

 

[Bum Luck]

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[ivan salis]

and away it goes --they have hauled it away --never to be seen by mere public eyes again -- only the "trained experts" can see or touch it now