Ornate decorative emblem ... ??? (gold, brass, other ... ) {New images}

[jmwilson]

(Updated with smaller images, which should fit on just about any display.)


Hello all...

This is my first decent find... on my first day with my metal detector...


After a few hours of finding old nails from an 1840s era squatter's cabin, we decide to work where an old road bed crossed a creek. The piece was a little over 12" under the bank of the creek. The first 3-4" of digging was through very large and dense roots. After that it was sand, rocks, and mud.

The piece came out of the sand and mud looking exactly as the pictures show - a brilliant shiny gold color. (I have not polished it or done anything to it.) My first impression was brass, but then I remembered that any brass left outdoors has a green color (due to the high copper content). So, I am left thinking this might actually be gold. The piece is fairly thin in places and it seems that the design was either stamped or hand engraved.

The first picture includes a penny (new and clean) and a dime for size and color reference. The other pictures just show the piece alone - both front and back.



First, I would like to know if anyone has any ideas what this piece is ... and what the design means?

Second, I would like to know if this is gold?
(I do plan to have it tested, but experienced opinions are welcomed.)


The piece was found in North Carolina.


thanks,
john

 

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[jmwilson]

It looks like a 'mammy made' gold sand cast of some type of jewelry. Is it heavy? What does your MD say it is? What does it smell like? Brass has a very distinct odor. Breezie

I'll have to pass the metal detector over it again. I was so preoccupied with unearthing it, that I didn't even stop to look at the needle.

I'll try the odor test this evening.

thanks,
john

 

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[jmwilson]

Could be a rattlesnake mouthIndians

What's a rattlesnake mouth?

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Symbol of strength ....

 

[CRUSADER]

It will turn out to be Brass or high copper-alloy, wet conditions will make it look like that. Test if you want.

 

[Breezie]

It will turn out to be Brass or high copper-alloy, wet conditions will make it look like that. Test if you want.

Actually copper does not react with water, but when exposed to the elements will develop a green layer of copper carbonate; verdigris. Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc, thus would age the same way, which is why many of our dug copper & brass items have a green patina.

I think his item is ormolu. Ormolu is made by pouring an alloy into a mold, then allowed to cool, then gilded with powdered gold mixed with mercury. It is then fired to evaporate the mercury leaving a gold surface. Ormolu was used to decorate furniture corners, drawer fronts, clocks, candelabras, etc.

Breezie

 

[CRUSADER]

It will turn out to be Brass or high copper-alloy, wet conditions will make it look like that. Test if you want.

Actually copper does not react with water, but when exposed to the elements will develop a green layer of copper carbonate; verdigris. Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc, thus would age the same way, which is why many of our dug copper & brass items have a green patina.

I think his item is ormolu. Ormolu is made by pouring an alloy into a mold, then allowed to cool, then gilded with powdered gold mixed with mercury. It is then fired to evaporate the mercury leaving a gold surface. Ormolu was used to decorate furniture corners, drawer fronts, clocks, candelabras, etc.

Breezie

i'll start sucking my eggs

I'm guessing you have seen Dutch Finds from water-logged deposits or finds from the Thames foreshore?

 

[Lucas]

What does it smell like? Brass has a very distinct odor. Breezie

I do that for silver. Nobody believes me tho.

 

[Breezie]

It will turn out to be Brass or high copper-alloy, wet conditions will make it look like that. Test if you want.

Actually copper does not react with water, but when exposed to the elements will develop a green layer of copper carbonate; verdigris. Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc, thus would age the same way, which is why many of our dug copper & brass items have a green patina.

I think his item is ormolu. Ormolu is made by pouring an alloy into a mold, then allowed to cool, then gilded with powdered gold mixed with mercury. It is then fired to evaporate the mercury leaving a gold surface. Ormolu was used to decorate furniture corners, drawer fronts, clocks, candelabras, etc.

Breezie

i'll start sucking my eggs

I'm guessing you have seen Dutch Finds from water-logged deposits or finds from the Thames foreshore?

No, I don't have to visit abroad to know plumbing pipes were made out of copper until the recent wide spread use of PVC, hense copper does not readily react to water. Nor do I have to travel abroad to know copper & brass develop copper carbonate when exposed to the elements. I guess it's the same principle as I don't have to go to hell to know I want to be in heaven when the time comes. Breezie

 

[CRUSADER]

It will turn out to be Brass or high copper-alloy, wet conditions will make it look like that. Test if you want.

Actually copper does not react with water, but when exposed to the elements will develop a green layer of copper carbonate; verdigris. Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc, thus would age the same way, which is why many of our dug copper & brass items have a green patina.

I think his item is ormolu. Ormolu is made by pouring an alloy into a mold, then allowed to cool, then gilded with powdered gold mixed with mercury. It is then fired to evaporate the mercury leaving a gold surface. Ormolu was used to decorate furniture corners, drawer fronts, clocks, candelabras, etc.

Breezie

i'll start sucking my eggs

I'm guessing you have seen Dutch Finds from water-logged deposits or finds from the Thames foreshore?

No, I don't have to visit abroad to know plumbing pipes were made out of copper until the recent wide spread use of PVC, hense copper does not readily react to water. Nor do I have to travel abroad to know copper & brass develop copper carbonate when exposed to the elements. I guess it's the same principle as I don't have to go to hell to know I want to be in heaven when the time comes. Breezie

http://www.thamesandfield2.piczo.com/?cr=2
do some research

 

[CRUSADER]

Tried to dig out something similar, forget about the different appearance as I have seen plenty of Brass come out like gold from the right conditions. It could be 1 of two things:

Horse related as discussed in the below post:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,175963.0.html

Or furniture related.

Your item's gap between the holes should be about 25mm from centre to centre.

A gold/silver testing kit will cost you about $25 from ebay, useful to have at that price

 

[RELICDUDE07]

 

[Silver Searcher]

Could you weigh the find :P or match it to something of a similar size, made of copper or brass

SS

 

[CRUSADER]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rococo

Forgot to answer your question. Your pieces decoration is influenced by the French Rococo design incorporating shell like patterns etc...

 

[jmwilson]

It looks like a 'mammy made' gold sand cast of some type of jewelry. Is it heavy? What does your MD say it is? What does it smell like? Brass has a very distinct odor. Breezie

Okay, did the smell test.

My wife and I smelled a brass key on my key chain - as a point of reference - and the brass key has a very distinct odor. When we smelled the emblem we could only smell a very weak odor. Then later that evening I realized that my finger tips also had a weak odor - like the brass key. So, this morning I washed my hands and smelled the emblem again - no odor. So, I think my fingers tips were tainted from handling the brass key.

I've ordered a gold testing kit from Amazon.com and I will let you guys know what the results are....

thanks,
john

thanks for all the help

 

[jmwilson]

Tried to dig out something similar, forget about the different appearance as I have seen plenty of Brass come out like gold from the right conditions. It could be 1 of two things:

Horse related as discussed in the below post:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,175963.0.html

Or furniture related.

Your item's gap between the holes should be about 25mm from centre to centre.

A gold/silver testing kit will cost you about $25 from ebay, useful to have at that price

Given that you guys have seen brass come out of water looking like this - I think it's most likely this is brass. I will be testing it soon.

thanks for all the help,
john

 

[RELICDUDE07]

I have seen brass look like this when found in the rivers or low tide area.I guess the shifting sands and the water almost polish it somehow.I was just havin fun,kinda look like a snake !keep us posted

 

[Chug And Red]

You can always take it to a jeweler, gold buyer and have them test it Just tell them you want to have it tested and if its gold they will be the first in line to purchase it!!! works for me! yes i have been embarrassed a few times!!!! i gets easier with time!! LOL

 

[jmwilson]

You can always take it to a jeweler, gold buyer and have them test it Just tell them you want to have it tested and if its gold they will be the first in line to purchase it!!! works for me! yes i have been embarrassed a few times!!!! i gets easier with time!! LOL

Okay....

I received my testing kit and was able to test last night.

Unfortunately, the piece is NOT made of gold. Numerous people that replied to this thread through that it was most likely made from brass.


thanks,
john

 

[CRUSADER]

You can always take it to a jeweler, gold buyer and have them test it Just tell them you want to have it tested and if its gold they will be the first in line to purchase it!!! works for me! yes i have been embarrassed a few times!!!! i gets easier with time!! LOL

Okay....

I received my testing kit and was able to test last night.

Unfortunately, the piece is NOT made of gold. Numerous people that replied to this thread through that it was most likely made from brass.


thanks,
john

thanks for updating us, the kit will be useful for the future

 

[lastleg]

I am somewhat surprised that a brass object would be confused with a gold
item. Like gold is very heavy whereas brass items are rather light in comparison
and is marked with purity symbols unless fashioned by an individual. Would
like to see the item enlarged.