Opinion please

[magua]

Yesterday, while we were on site with the gentleman who was doing GPS (ground penetrating sonar) a local gentleman approached us to show us a couple Indian arrowheads that he had. We gave him our opinion, which I’m not going to list here because he didn’t like our opinion. I showed him the thread before I’m posting this, so he knows that I’m asking for an objective opinion from people who are professional and experts, and can identify these arrowheads by approximate age, details.

I will give a little history on the area which is south western New York State, within Indian reservation area which was a confederacy. It is a very high area of finding Indian artifacts, of course. We have found many arrowheads and pottery shards within the same piece of property. We actually located what we had believed to be a burial mound a few weeks back, and we’re verifying it with some GPS. In the exact area, we have already identified graves that date to anr 1850s and they are European settlers buried within “boxes”. There is also a Native American buried at a much later time, probable 1920s to 1940s, in the exact same area. The site that we are identifying as possibly a burial mound is far earlier.

Based on that little history of the area, this gentleman presented us with these two Indian arrowheads, and he believes them to be ”very, very old.”

Opinions to age, details, authenticity. And that’s the info he was looking to share and allowed me to share about the area, and he’s looking for objective opinions.

 

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[Blackfoot58]

I’m not seeing the ancient workmanship.

 

[robertk]

They're shaped like arrowheads, but they don't look like arrowheads. Maybe if they've been endlessly tumbled in a river or something.

 

[newnan man]

They look "old" to me. I'm not familiar with NY artifacts and the lithics used so I'll let someone else chime in.

 

[Relicgrubber]

I agree. Ancient and knapped from some type of Rhyolite... Maybe Pickwick type related form.

 

[CreekSide]

They are the real deal not sure on the age but definitely points. There are types of stone that just makes you wonder why in the heck they preferred it. Just like slate is a softer stone. Maybe it was easier to work but the type doesn’t last with age and will breakdown with time. If they were creek find’s they would probably be erased by now with water and sand rolling over them for 1,000s of years. But even if found in dirt the weather can break that material down from heat and cold. I’m sure someone from up north will know the material on them. I’m in Georgia

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

They look authentic and they look like they have spent a lot of time in a creek, stream or river tumbling.

 

[magua]

Well, I’m sure this is going to make my compatriot happy to hear. We thought they were original points as well and we had told him probably 1000 years old at the least, maybe as much as 3000. But He was insisting that they were over 20,000 years old, maybe “30 thousand “ and he had gotten that material from a local “tribal guy.” we never got a clear answer on the tribal guy meaning. In this particular area, that could be almost anyone because it is a reservation area and the area of Seneca nations. we had told him that some of the oldest Indian arrowheads that were found in North America dated to about 13,000 to 15000 years old and he now believes that his 30,000 years old points are the oldest found in North America.

The area where he located them was an old spring. Looking at a GPS and maps that we had with us there, a creek ran downhill to disappear under some large boulders before it reappeared, and someone had formed a spring at the area where the water resurfaced. He did not tell us if it was found in the creek or above the spring, or in the spring. And we factored in that the creek above where the springs is located is not located on his property, and therefore, it may actually be on reservation land. And as he tells me straight up, to know they were by the spring is enough information. And probably because he owns a great deal of farmland below the spring, which runs through his farm. We also know that there are several creeks that run through his farm. So whether he found them near the spring, or in one of the other creeks, or even in the farm fields, while plowing are all possibilities.

he is one of those type of people that knows a great deal of information that are factual, also will throw in a little bit of a tale to throw people off, and probably could educate and teach people about the area, but chooses to keep the information bottled up so that only he knows. Which is sad, because he’s close to 90, and we know that he will not be able to share that information at some point in the near future.

it was interesting to see his points, and he says he has plenty of others, which we don’t doubt. But he wanted to show these to us because of their age.

 

[nickndfl]

I bought the same exact arrowheads at Harbor Freight. Made in China!

 

[newnan man]

Well, I’m sure this is going to make my compatriot happy to hear. We thought they were original points as well and we had told him probably 1000 years old at the least, maybe as much as 3000. But He was insisting that they were over 20,000 years old, maybe “30 thousand “ and he had gotten that material from a local “tribal guy.” we never got a clear answer on the tribal guy meaning. In this particular area, that could be almost anyone because it is a reservation area and the area of Seneca nations. we had told him that some of the oldest Indian arrowheads that were found in North America dated to about 13,000 to 15000 years old and he now believes that his 30,000 years old points are the oldest found in North America.

The area where he located them was an old spring. Looking at a GPS and maps that we had with us there, a creek ran downhill to disappear under some large boulders before it reappeared, and someone had formed a spring at the area where the water resurfaced. He did not tell us if it was found in the creek or above the spring, or in the spring. And we factored in that the creek above where the springs is located is not located on his property, and therefore, it may actually be on reservation land. And as he tells me straight up, to know they were by the spring is enough information. And probably because he owns a great deal of farmland below the spring, which runs through his farm. We also know that there are several creeks that run through his farm. So whether he found them near the spring, or in one of the other creeks, or even in the farm fields, while plowing are all possibilities.

he is one of those type of people that knows a great deal of information that are factual, also will throw in a little bit of a tale to throw people off, and probably could educate and teach people about the area, but chooses to keep the information bottled up so that only he knows. Which is sad, because he’s close to 90, and we know that he will not be able to share that information at some point in the near future.

it was interesting to see his points, and he says he has plenty of others, which we don’t doubt. But he wanted to show these to us because of their age.

It's doubtful they are as old as your friend says. If someone types them, then the time period is established. I would guess archaic, so appx. 3-7 thousand years ago.

 

[magua]

I bought the same exact arrowheads at Harbor Freight. Made in China!

I didn't think harbor freight was that old
You probably bought them from the same old fart that showed them to us.

 

[magua]

It's doubtful they are as old as your friend says. If someone types them, then the time period is established. I would guess archaic, so appx. 3-7 thousand years ago.

Yea. Definitely. The guy's that I was working with have found and excavated indian villages over a period of 17 years...they're really Ace on these things. They were saying the same thing...1-3 thousand years old maybe....a little more possibly, but no way 20-30K. And we told him that we were pretty impressed and those were some remarkable finds and old...but he was interested in hearing that...just wanted someone to say yes to his age range.

Thanks everyone for the input. I still feel that he should be exceptionally proud of his finds.

 

[Lone Star]

Yesterday, while we were on site with the gentleman who was doing GPS (ground penetrating sonar) a local gentleman approached us to show us a couple Indian arrowheads that he had. We gave him our opinion, which I’m not going to list here because he didn’t like our opinion. I showed him the thread before I’m posting this, so he knows that I’m asking for an objective opinion from people who are professional and experts, and can identify these arrowheads by approximate age, details.

I will give a little history on the area which is south western New York State, within Indian reservation area which was a confederacy. It is a very high area of finding Indian artifacts, of course. We have found many arrowheads and pottery shards within the same piece of property. We actually located what we had believed to be a burial mound a few weeks back, and we’re verifying it with some GPS. In the exact area, we have already identified graves that date to anr 1850s and they are European settlers buried within “boxes”. There is also a Native American buried at a much later time, probable 1920s to 1940s, in the exact same area. The site that we are identifying as possibly a burial mound is far earlier.

Based on that little history of the area, this gentleman presented us with these two Indian arrowheads, and he believes them to be ”very, very old.”

Opinions to age, details, authenticity. And that’s the info he was looking to share and allowed me to share about the area, and he’s looking for objective opinions.

Ask him if he made them with a file or grinder. My socks are older than those points.

 

[Blackfoot58]

I’m skeptical because of the “eye feel” of the bases. They have the look of blanks waiting to be worked, and I don’t mean ancient preforms. They look too intentional, for the total lack of detail present. I’m not trying to sway any opinions. I hope they are the real deal. IF I found them, Woo-hoo! Would I buy them with the questions I have: no sir.

 

[magua]

Ask him if he made them with a file or grinder. My socks are older than those points.

Lol. The area does have a very extensive history for NA lithics and his farm is only about 1/2 mile from the area where we are working. Knowing that we have uncovered items throughout the area, we felt it wasn’t unreal to think that these came from close by. Three of us were giving him the benefit of the doubt based on the material and other various finds, I will say the one other guy with us looked at them and walked away, and said he thought they were bullshit.

We’ve had to redirect giy and we actually have an entire area set up about three-quarter mile on the other side of property, where it looks like we have been actively working. Our area is well screened by forests outside the fields. And that’s just to distract some locals. Mainly, him. We actually have a sensor at the end of the road that goes off if somebody drives down and that’s how we ended up meeting this guy and talking with him. The sensors went off because he just turned down this usually gated road, where the gate was unlocked and open.

We probably won’t tell him that they’re older than your socks, as we are trying to keep the peace so he stays civil and doesn’t cause issues.
Now, I am even more intrigued of other peoples opinions as well.

 

[magua]

I’m skeptical because of the “eye feel” of the bases. They have the look of blanks waiting to be worked, and I don’t mean ancient preforms. They look too intentional, for the total lack of detail present. I’m not trying to sway any opinions. I hope they are the real deal. IF I found them, Woo-hoo! Would I buy them with the questions I have: no sir.

I have never purchased a single Indianhead arrow for the exact reason you said. I’m often like, good find. But would I buy it, probably not, unless it came from someone very reputable. And then, they’re usually too expensive for me to spend the money on.

 

[Older The Better]

Glossing over the real or not question, I’d say form wise my money would be on woodland and I could get behind a mid to late archaic, but certainly not 20-30k look at the western stemmed tradition, that’s kind of what I would expect out of a pre-Clovis

Also food for thought, was your area in question under an ice sheet at the time he’s dating his points, I’d say there’s a chance, but I haven’t really studied ancient climates in ny

 

[magua]

I had a chance to speak with my friend, who was with us yesterday, to discuss the arrowheads that we looked at, and the final conclusion from him was: bare island points. Late archaic to early woodland. igneous, basalt. Most likely rhyolite. Very commonly found in New York.

Here’s a link:

Bare Island Stemmed

Looking at the pictures of the various points, and the information. The material was scanned to be basalt, which is igneous rock. It appears to match the details, type, and the look.

 

[magua]

Glossing over the real or not question, I’d say form wise my money would be on woodland and I could get behind a mid to late archaic, but certainly not 20-30k look at the western stemmed tradition, that’s kind of what I would expect out of a pre-Clovis

Also food for thought, was your area in question under an ice sheet at the time he’s dating his points, I’d say there’s a chance, but I haven’t really studied ancient climates in ny

TBH: I could tell him that it was under ice during those times, and he still won’t believe us. But the salamanca Area was the only area in New York State to not be touched by glaciers.

 

[nickndfl]

For the record paleontologists can only put modern humans in North America 14,000 to 20,000 years ago. Prior to that glaciers prevented humans from walking across the Bering land bridge between what is now Russia and Alaska. There was no known boat technology either.

In addition, modern humans are at most 200,000 years old and agriculture only happened within the last 6,000 - 8,000 years.