Ole Brass Shoe Buckle Frame

[steelheadwill]

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone !!
I Hit the shore for the new moon low tides,
after an hour of learning the history of fishing sinkers, & digging some toasty coins,
I got a loud signal, depth meter maxed out,
figured I'd be pulling out a piece of copper sheathing...
about 16" down in the sand was a nice heavy cast buckle
looking to be 1650-1720 style.
edges of the pin terminals show significant wear,
I think this piece adorned several shoes before being lost.
This heavy casting is in high contrast to one I dug last week,
which was large, but a thin and delicate design.
Good enough for me! packed it in & headed home, was 40 degrees, rain & wind...
This seems to be my pattern lately, hunt an hour or two,
score a goodie, and time to go
Best to you all! Thanks for looking & HH!

 

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[steelheadwill]

Thanks Herbie,

I am super interested as I don't have a "test" garden. and 16 inch deep finds are , well scarce. I frankly was not too impressed with E-track's air testing ability, so yes I am looking forward to seeing what you have to say.

I have always believed that a detector can find stuff deeper in packed damp soil than in an air test, and I will believe what you say, I know who to believe, and who not too. (there are many in the later category)

Basicly the deepest coins I have come across were in the 11 to 12 inch range. About the depth of the snow today. I hope it melts before Christmas, I want one more copper. Been so busy didn't even look at the forum for a few days.

Thanks,

Rick PS Hope I didn't mess that up.

I got some testing done,
we're pretty well frozen up here, so I set the buckle on an overturned 5 gallon bucket and tested by placing bags of potting soil on top of it.
The buckle is 2.2" X 2.7" at 39 grams, so it is a much more visible target than a coin.
My Etrac was getting 27 out of 30 on auto sensitivity.
Loud and accurate signal at 16", still there but erratic at 18", nulling at 20"
Air test at 12" was clear & accurate, but fell off quickly over 12".

 

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[HEAVYMETALNUT]

nice save! looks awesome outta the hole next to that muddy mess

 

[steelheadwill]

nice save! looks awesome outta the hole next to that muddy mess

Thanks!!
A friend had just pulled into the nearby lot & I was going to be leaving with him,
I already had the signal, and after digging 40 sinkers in a row may very well have just left it, you can see the top mud layer clumps on the right, and the gravel/shell mix spread out on the left, that layer stops everything from sinking out of the recovery
zone, areas that don't have it aren't really worth hunting...
Glad I dug that last target

 

[johnnyblaze]

Killer buckle Herbie


Blaze

 

[Lanny in AB]

Very nice!!

All the best,

Lanny

 

[Steve in PA]

That buckle definitely looks older than what we typically find. Nice recovery Herbie!

 

[steelheadwill]

That buckle definitely looks older than what we typically find. Nice recovery Herbie!

Thanks Steve
The buckle find area has not been searched by me yet, it is not the rocky area that gave up all the sinkers, but the mud/sand flats beyond,
It is a logical place to search, would have been a travel route, bridge, boat or ferry.
Hoping to pull more oldies from there on Decembers new moon lows.
Are you up to suggesting a date range on this Frame ?
HH !!

 

[The Patriot]

love that buckle... never seen too many like that...

 

[JimBeHuntin']

Congratz on the nice buckle!

 

[steelheadwill]

Thanks Patriot and Jim!
Am I correct in thinking this frame is 1650-1700 origin ?

 

[Steve in PA]

That buckle definitely looks older than what we typically find. Nice recovery Herbie!

Thanks Steve
The buckle find area has not been searched by me yet, it is not the rocky area that gave up all the sinkers, but the mud/sand flats beyond,
It is a logical place to search, would have been a travel route, bridge, boat or ferry.
Hoping to pull more oldies from there on Decembers new moon lows.
Are you up to suggesting a date range on this Frame ?
HH !!

Herbie,

I don't have much experience with shoe buckles earlier than the 1750's. That's as old as it gets in this part of PA. Without the chape it might be a little harder to date, but I think the older ones had smaller frames and that frame looks smaller than one from the 2nd half of the 18th century. If I was going to throw a wild guess out there I would say 1720.

 

[Silver Searcher]

Thanks Patriot and Jim!
Am I correct in thinking this frame is 1650-1700 origin ?

Bronze or Brass. that's what will date it

SS

 

[steelheadwill]

Thanks Patriot and Jim!
Am I correct in thinking this frame is 1650-1700 origin ?

Bronze or Brass. that's what will date it

SS

Thanks Steve and SS, How do you tell bronze from brass,?
Does Shiny yellow from saltwater mean Brass?
I have this other early buckle, also from saltwater,
that is Dark, meaning it's bronze?
I think I answered my own question, would appreciate any further input
I can't tell by looking, the difference between dug Bronze and Copper Indian Cents

 

[CMDiamonddawg]

Thanks Patriot and Jim!
Am I correct in thinking this frame is 1650-1700 origin ?

Bronze or Brass. that's what will date it

SS

Thanks Steve and SS, How do you tell bronze from brass,?
Does Shiny yellow from saltwater mean Brass?
I have this other early buckle, also from saltwater,
that is Dark, meaning it's bronze?
I think I answered my own question, would appreciate any further input
I can't tell by looking, the difference between dug Bronze and Copper Indian Cents

brass is copper / zinc sometimes nickel is added , which would result in a reddish patina .... my input is brass would stay more shiny in salt water because of the zinc content much better than bronze .... copper / tin ... great brass buckle H ... that's a whole lotta lead , maybe open a tackle store dawg

 

[Steve in PA]

Thanks Steve and SS, How do you tell bronze from brass,?
Does Shiny yellow from saltwater mean Brass?
I have this other early buckle, also from saltwater,
that is Dark, meaning it's bronze?
I think I answered my own question, would appreciate any further input
I can't tell by looking, the difference between dug Bronze and Copper Indian Cents

Herbie,

Here is an example of Brass & Bronze on the same piece. One side of this lock and the hasp are bronze, while the face on the other side is brass. I find that pure bronze found on land is usually a smooth greyish green patina, while brass is more greenish and tends to corrode more. When the patina comes off brass it often turns reddish.

 

[Don in SJ]

Nice finds, I found a very similar buckle a few years back at a site that luckily was not too contaminated with newer relics. Here is a riker mount photo of the finds from an early sawmill site that was abandoned in the mid 1700s.
Amazingly enough, I found 1 knee/breech buckle, and 4 different shoe buckles, some just pieces at this small site. Depending on how long the shoe buckle was in use before being lost or thrown away I have to say it dates no later than 1750s and perhaps is from the early 1700s.

I measured the shoe buckle, 1.9 inches by 2.25 inches.

Added a photo of the underside of my buckle, the hinge pin holes went entirely through the buckle, one side still has part of the hinge pin rusted into the hole.

Don

 

[Silver Searcher]

Thanks Steve and SS, How do you tell bronze from brass,?
Does Shiny yellow from saltwater mean Brass?
I have this other early buckle, also from saltwater,
that is Dark, meaning it's bronze?
I think I answered my own question, would appreciate any further input
I can't tell by looking, the difference between dug Bronze and Copper Indian Cents

Herbie,

Here is an example of Brass & Bronze on the same piece. One side of this lock and the hasp are bronze, while the face on the other side is brass. I find that pure bronze found on land is usually a smooth greyish green patina, while brass is more greenish and tends to corrode more. When the patina comes off brass it often turns reddish.

Not always true, I have had Bronze that is Black, and Roman Bronze bright green, but that is usually when the Bronze has just about gone with disease. Bronze can take on a variety of colours, it all depends on the chemicals or deposits in the soil.
It's hard to tell from the picture posted of the Buckle, but I am leaning towards Brass, unless the Buckle has been tossed about in the surf, were the sand could have removed any patina. Don's dates seem about right and it's still a very nice buckle

SS

 

[Common Cents]

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone !!
I Hit the shore for the new moon low tides,
after an hour of learning the history of fishing sinkers, & digging some toasty coins,
I got a loud signal, depth meter maxed out,
figured I'd be pulling out a piece of copper sheathing...
about 16" down in the sand was a nice heavy cast buckle
looking to be 1650-1720 style.
edges of the pin terminals show significant wear,
I think this piece adorned several shoes before being lost.
This heavy casting is in high contrast to one I dug last week,
which was large, but a thin and delicate design.
Good enough for me! packed it in & headed home, was 40 degrees, rain & wind...
This seems to be my pattern lately, hunt an hour or two,
score a goodie, and time to go
Best to you all! Thanks for looking & HH!

Really cool buckle! interesting relics!

 

[steelheadwill]

Thanks for all the replies and help

SS, it is Likely brass, from a quiet area, no surf, and appears as do later brass items.
Steve,
Early/mid 18th sounds great
Your buckle looks very similar in design, just a bit smaller.. Great display!
Again I will say I need to assemble some of these,
my finds are all in small labelled bags, or 2X2s, arranged by type in boxes
CMD,
great comparison of metals on that lock, have seen the reddish coating on some of my pieces, I much prefer the dark green bronze to the sharp yellow brass colors
Many thanks again, I have gained a wealth of knowledge from Tnet members
since I started MDing

 

[nhagan]

way to go herbie that buckle is amazing!

neil