Old weird token with horse on it, Farley Coin, Any ideas.....

[ugotit22]

Hey guys
i went to this 1800's farm house today and come up with this in the front yard. It is copper about the size of a half dollar. It has what looks like a horses head with some strange symbols and one side. The other side looks like the bust of a women wearing a wreath around her head.
I have no idea what it could be.
any information would be great.
Thanks
Keith

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

Its a fantasy coin but if you post it on eBay as the rare, Ancient Greek, Carthaginian, Connecticut Farley Coin, only 12 known in existance, with a few links and pictures...who knows what you will get for it? Maybe a 100 bucks. http://www.treasurenet.com/cgi-bin/treasure/westeast/askmarkparker.pl/Show?_id=200307

 

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[Erik in NJ]

So what is the latest news with this coin? Someone bumped the 5 page thread and I read with interest and this one, but they just fizzled out it seems.

Is this another "Piltdown Man?"

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

So what is the latest news with this coin? Someone bumped the 5 page thread and I read with interest and this one, but they just fizzled out it seems.

Is this another "Piltdown Man?"

As more and more of these fantasy coins surface, the interest goes down. We dont know exactly who or why these bronze forgeries were made but we do know they were made in the late 1800's or very early 1900's and are only found in the USA and it does NOT prove the Carthaginians discovered America. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man They were cleverly made and several books were written and college professors fooled, but they dont fool TN members.

A copy of this coin surfaced in mint condition with the original lustre still intact under a laquer coating causing a certain professor to realize it cannot be 2000 years old. He wrote back to tell us he already realized this.. That pretty much put the last nail in the coffin. Its still a mystery as to who and why these were made. These coins were found in ALABAMA, ARKANSAS, WISCONSIN, MASSACHUSETTS, MAINE, KANSAS, PENNSYLVANIA, NEBRASKA, GEORGIA and CONNECTICUT..

 

[Erik in NJ]

Thus my reference to Piltdown Man (ca same timeframe too!) I wonder if they were made and scattered to try and fool the scientific community at the time into believing the Carthagins were here first. It's my understanding that there are several die varieties and the coin looks quite crude (at least the engraving of the horse) compared to the original silver coins. I take it the text on the coin under the horse is non-sense? The guy was either a sloppy forgerer or he only had a picture of an original and couldn't make out the text. But if it was meant to fool, I can't believe someone would not get the text right. Maybe made for fun or novelty. I take it there are only 12 in existence still? Would love to read a book on these - what is the best source? Seems the professor's book is only 43 pages? BTW, the best book on Piltdown Man controversy and an author who seems to have finally revealed the perpetrator of the hoax is entitled "The Piltdown Men" - excellent book and a lot bigger than 43 pages!

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I added a few more states to my list. Im not sure of the exact count. IronSpike found another online so the count is at least 13 known..


I dont remember the name of the book but it was originally written by Gloria Farley and these are commomly called "Farley Coins." http://www.gloriafarley.com/chap11.htm I found one of the Farley Coins ( The Oklahoma Thurium Coin) in my 1909 Sears Roebuck. Notice also the nonsense writing. Note the artists illustration was printed in reverse which was a common occurance.

"Two other ancient Mediterranean coins found two of my friends. They are included here because the three of us work together and the coins were discovered in the southern and eastern sections of Oklahoma. The two coins are almost identical and are of about the same time period as the seven Carthaginian coins described above. These coins from ancient Italy have been researched by my colleagues, Dr. Cyclone Covey, of Wake Forest University of North Carolina, and by Totten." Quote Gloria Farley.



The 5 page thread will forever be remembered as one of TN's classic "What Is Its", along with the Alaskan egg counter thread and Piggys Piggnutts, although most of the latter had to be deleted due to member bickering.

 

[Erik in NJ]

Thanks, but wasn't Gloria Farley one of the original proponents of the theory that the ancients visited our shores? I'd be more interested in the investigation of the die varieties and some scientific research into where the "coins" actually came from. Seems that it should be fairly easy for an expert to tell the difference between a coin that has been buried for 100 years and one that has been buried for 2000. Interesting story...

 

[Silver Searcher]

Thanks, but wasn't Gloria Farley one of the original proponents of the theory that the ancients visited our shores? I'd be more interested in the investigation of the die varieties and some scientific research into where the "coins" actually came from. Seems that it should be fairly easy for an expert to tell the difference between a coin that has been buried for 100 years and one that has been buried for 2000. Interesting story...

I to would be interested to hear about the die varieties your right it wouldn't take a expert long to tell the difference, once he had it in his hands, but I believe that the original one posted here never got sent to a expert only pictures, and I doubt very much if any expert, would comment on something through pictures alone.

SS

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Thanks, but wasn't Gloria Farley one of the original proponents of the theory that the ancients visited our shores? I'd be more interested in the investigation of the die varieties and some scientific research into where the "coins" actually came from. Seems that it should be fairly easy for an expert to tell the difference between a coin that has been buried for 100 years and one that has been buried for 2000. Interesting story...

You would think. AllI know about are the books by Professor Mark Mcmenamin.

McMenamin, M. A. 2000. Phoenicians, Fakes and Barry Fell: Solving the Mystery of Carthaginian Coins Found in America. Meanma Press, South Hadley, Massachusetts. ISBN 1893882012



McMenamin however still believes in a Carthaginian presense. His Carthaginian map coin theory is still going strong and has gained additional supporters. The most recent paper on this subject is the following:

McMenamin, M. 2009. The mystery of the Carthaginian map coins. NI (Numismatics International) Bulletin, v. 44, nos. 7/8, p. 125-126.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Thanks, but wasn't Gloria Farley one of the original proponents of the theory that the ancients visited our shores? I'd be more interested in the investigation of the die varieties and some scientific research into where the "coins" actually came from. Seems that it should be fairly easy for an expert to tell the difference between a coin that has been buried for 100 years and one that has been buried for 2000. Interesting story...

I two would be interested to hear about the die varieties your right it wouldn't take a expert long to tell the difference, once he had it in his hands, but I believe that the original one posted here never got sent to a expert only pictures, and I doubt very much if any expert, would comment on something through pictures alone.

SS

I tried to compile a list and could only document 12 or 13 found. I have to wonder about Farleys poor pictures. As far as I know this late1800- early1900 variety is always bronze or brass and found only in America. I think the only type thats controversial is the dangling root variety. Sometimes with a hole. Some were inspected and tested by "experts" and some recent finds like this probably were not tested. But all the known genuine Carthaginian coins of this type are silver and without the dangling root, which is theorized to signify a transplanted civilization..

 

[Erik in NJ]

So was Farley's OK coin an exact match to the "coin" in the Sears fob? Her's also had the nonsense script on it? If so it sounds like you have debunked the Farley theory! Since these other coins appear to NOT be forgeries due to the nonsense script (what counterfeiter would put nonsense words on a counterfeit bill??). Also why would anyone shellac a coin unless it was part of a piece of jewelry or a novelty?

I found one of the Farley Coins ( The Oklahoma Thurium Coin) in my 1909 Sears Roebuck. Notice also the nonsense writing. Note the artists illustration was printed in reverse which was a common occurance. (sic)

 

[Silver Searcher]

Thanks, but wasn't Gloria Farley one of the original proponents of the theory that the ancients visited our shores? I'd be more interested in the investigation of the die varieties and some scientific research into where the "coins" actually came from. Seems that it should be fairly easy for an expert to tell the difference between a coin that has been buried for 100 years and one that has been buried for 2000. Interesting story...

I two would be interested to hear about the die varieties your right it wouldn't take a expert long to tell the difference, once he had it in his hands, but I believe that the original one posted here never got sent to a expert only pictures, and I doubt very much if any expert, would comment on something through pictures alone.

SS

I tried to compile a list could only document 12 or 13 found. I have to wonder about Farleys poor pictures. As far as I know this late1800- early1900 variety is always bronze or brass and found only in America. I think the only type thats controversial is the dangling root variety. Sometimes with a hole. Some were inspected and tested by "experts" and some recent finds like this probably were not tested. But all the known genuine Carthaginian coins of this type are silver and without the dangling root, which is theorized to signify a transplanted civilization..

Not being made from Silver doesn't rule out local contemporary forgeries they could have once been Silvered like the local Roman imatations found in the UK

SS

 

[Silver Searcher]

So was Farley's OK coin an exact match to the "coin" in the Sears fob? Her's also had the nonsense script on it? If so it sounds like you have debunked the Farley theory! Since these other coins appear to NOT be forgeries due to the nonsense script (what counterfeiter would put nonsense words on a counterfeit bill??). Also why would anyone shellac a coin unless it was part of a piece of jewelry or a novelty?

I found one of the Farley Coins ( The Oklahoma Thurium Coin) in my 1909 Sears Roebuck. Notice also the nonsense writing. Note the artists illustration was printed in reverse which was a common occurance. (sic)

The reason for the nonsence script might be they were never intended to be passed as the real coin, that would make it a forgery and illegal to do so.

SS

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

So was Farley's OK coin an exact match to the "coin" in the Sears fob? Her's also had the nonsense script on it? If so it sounds like you have debunked the Farley theory! Since these other coins appear to NOT be forgeries due to the nonsense script (what counterfeiter would put nonsense words on a counterfeit bill??). Also why would anyone shellac a coin unless it was part of a piece of jewelry or a novelty?

Good points. It appears the coin was made for jewelry or novelty. Yes I think its an exact match but we only have pictures and yes I think it helps to debunk the Farley theory and the scholars who participated.. Gloria Farley has passed away unfortunately so was unable to respond.
I thought it was graet of Professor Mc. to explain his part in it. Heres an authentic silver that comes closest to matching. The dangling roots match no know authentic variety.. http://www.ancient-coins.com/articles/carthage/020.jpg

 

[Erik in NJ]

Well to me - with the dangling roots on the tree - those that claim it represented the uprooting and transplanting of a culture in the US smacks of someone attempting to influence others' religious views. With the inclusion of the nonsense script it doesn't sound to me that they were too bright or trying to influence those that were. At least the Piltdown hoax was brilliantly executed and unfortunately influenced (twarted) paleoanthropological thought at time for quite a while. This "hoax" if they were not produced for novelty - was obviously not perpetrated by a scientist or intellectual. A study of the die varieties on the 12 or 13 specimens would be quite interesting. Has anyone compile hi-res pics of the "coins?" Heck if they only fetch 50 - 100 dollars sounds like it would be easy enough to buy all of them and study them.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

All the dangling root varieties appear to me to be the same die but different panchets. All 13 are the same die but the edges are cut different and some have holes. I think its a good chance that this is also a mail order catalog item, watch fob or jewelry piece. It was the latest craze in 1900 era.. It was found in too many different states.

 

[Erik in NJ]

The more I think about it - since the engraver took such liberties with the horse and the text - it's not unreasonable to take liberties with the tree as well. Sounds like the dangling roots were just a whim of the artist and those trying to espouse their ancients in America theory grabbed hold of it as evidence of the "transplanting of a society" with little to no real evidence to support this imagery. Sounds like it was just a type of novelty token produced when this style was in vogue and certain parties trying to create diaspora theories from a novelty may very well end up with egg on their faces.

 

[Silver Searcher]

All the dangling root varieties appear to me to be the same die but different panchets. All 13 are the same die but the edges are cut different and some have holes. I think its a good chance that this is also a mail order catalog item, watch fob or jewelry piece. It was the latest craze in 1900 era.. It was found in too many different states.

I don't agree all 13 can not be from the same dies, there are several differences, as have been high-lighted before in previous posts.

SS

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

All the dangling root varieties appear to me to be the same die but different panchets. All 13 are the same die but the edges are cut different and some have holes. I think its a good chance that this is also a mail order catalog item, watch fob or jewelry piece. It was the latest craze in 1900 era.. It was found in too many different states.

I don't agree all 13 can not be from the same dies, there are several differences, as have been high-lighted before in previous posts.

SS

Gloria Farley posted several different coins and maybe I counted them as Farley coins but I dont remember seeing any differences with the dangling root variety, which is the only variety in question. They were identical right down to the last dentical, as I recall. We dont have pics of them all. This last coin found by Ironspike doesnt seem to have denticals, maybe they are worn off, but the die seems the same.

Post several dangling root varieties side by side and we could have another look if you wish. It was a long time ago and I dont recall any major differences other than size, outside diameter and some are holed. Maybe Ill post them all on one page myself for future reference if I get a chance. I didnt realize anyone was still interested.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Looking back, the PENNSYLVANIA COIN is different and does not have dangling roots and should not be counted. It may be autrhentic. Maybe it needs researched but the pic is so poor.. http://www.gloriafarley.com/chap11.htm

Gloria Farley mentions some differences in her link but I dont see them. Again her pics are so poor. Too bad she is not alive to respond.

I believe all the dangling root coins found by TN members are the same die. I think Farley calls it the Alabama Variety.

 

[Silver Searcher]

All the dangling root varieties appear to me to be the same die but different panchets. All 13 are the same die but the edges are cut different and some have holes. I think its a good chance that this is also a mail order catalog item, watch fob or jewelry piece. It was the latest craze in 1900 era.. It was found in too many different states.

I don't agree all 13 can not be from the same dies, there are several differences, as have been high-lighted before in previous posts.

SS

Gloria Farley posted several different coins and maybe I counted them as Farley coins but I dont remember seeing any differences with the dangling root variety, which is the only variety in question. They were identical right down to the last dentical, as I recall. We dont have pics of them all. This last coin found by Ironspike doesnt seem to have denticals, maybe they are worn off, but the die seems the same.

Post several dangling root varieties side by side and we could have another look if you wish. It was a long time ago and I dont recall any major differences other than size, outside diameter and some are holed. Maybe Ill post them all on one page myself for future reference if I get a chance. I didnt realize anyone was still interested.

Have a look at Oroblanco reply further up this thread, there are also pictures posted here of the dangling roots, which have several differences

SS